A question for the religious and non-religious alike.

hpdfk · Post by **hpdfk** » 6/6/2004, 1:35 pm

But then why didn't god create him with free will and without a sense of greed. He is after all perfect.

joe_canadian · Post by **joe_canadian** » 6/6/2004, 1:39 pm

You're asking me to tell you God's motivation for things?? :lol:

hpdfk · Post by **hpdfk** » 6/6/2004, 1:40 pm

Nope, just ruining your train of thought

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Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/6/2004, 2:05 pm

Haha, exactly. The majority of this thread consists of questions without answers - the essence of philosophy.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/6/2004, 2:37 pm

hpdfk wrote:But then why didn't god create him with free will and without a sense of greed. He is after all perfect.

How can you create someone with free will if they cannot choose to do something negative? Thats not free will. The same goes for humans. Humans were given free will and as humans we can choose whether or not to love God. If we had no choice but to love God it wouldnt be love. You must choose to love someone.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/6/2004, 2:42 pm

Axtech wrote:Another question just came to me... Since God created heaven, he created the angels, correct? However, Satan is a fallen angel. All negative or imperfect things link back to Satan, who was originally an angel. But Satan, obviously imperfect in his greed and lust for power, was created by God. How could God, while trying to create perfection, fail with this angel, if He is perfect?

God wasnt trying to create perfection. He did create perfection. Would beings without will or choice be perfect? In a sense but they would be mindless zombies. Angels were created with free choice just like Humans. The angels that followed Satan became demons. The Angels that stuck with God remained Angels. God made us perfect but remaining perfection was left up to the individual.

Penguin Josh · Post by **Penguin Josh** » 6/6/2004, 2:55 pm

I like how matthew good puts it best:

"man makes god so he can make man, man makes the devil so he can understand"

Hattie123 · Post by **Hattie123** » 6/6/2004, 7:42 pm

this is all extremly confusing, i remember my mom reading this book about people who had visions of heaven and hell and purgatory every day at the same time. it was weird. they described what each of them were like. it said that people were being scorched in hell for their sins. but what i dont understand is, who created hell? satan or god, if it was satan, why would god send humans down there in the first place?

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/6/2004, 9:57 pm

God created Hell. Hell is by definition the complete absence from God. Contrary to what the Simpsons or Bugs Bunny may tell you, Satan isnt having fun down in hell. Satan currently isnt even in Hell if were looking at the Christian view point.. which we have been for pretty much this whole thread.

Secondly no one really knows what hell looks like. It is described as a place LIKE fire and brimstone. The pains indured their are being compared to being burned by fire for eternity. Who knows, it may not be literal fire. I think of it as a place that is completely absent of any joy or happiness. Imagine a place where you are incapable of feeling anything postive and are only able to feel the hate,fear and pain of humanity. Thats what I think hell is like.

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » 6/7/2004, 12:06 am

So hell is like endless depression? :lol:

God cannot make something perfect if it doesn't have free will. If people were incapable of feeling things, they would be imperfect. I think what someone said is right, God created something to love. But not everything is worthy of love. He had to give us some sort of test and reward.

Also, I am very glad for my faith. If it does turn out that there's no such thing as any of this and I will rot in the ground, then I'm glad I believe in it anyhow. Or else I wouldn't be able to function day to day, and when tragedy occurs and someone dies, I won't be able to continue thinking I will never see them again. I'd rather believe I will. Even if it's not true, it's a good way to keep human kind functioning. Sure, some people can do it, but I sure as crap couldn't.

To expand just a little bit on my belief in Heaven via Mormonism. We believe that wherever you get put after the resurrection is where you will be happiest. If you didn't make it to the celestial kingdom, you're not going to want to live with people who do cause you'd be miserable. I went to a fireside tonight and it was about temples, and he sort of used an anology I thought worked for this. If you got put in a leven of heaven you didn't belong in, it would be like going from 4th grade math to advanced calculus. You'd hate it and resent it. In heaven, we also believe that you have the chance to grow, so you're not stuck.

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 6/7/2004, 1:20 am

the idea of free will though itself is imperfection, the weakness of making wrong choices makes us imperfect. And if we are made perefect other then free will, how can sociopaths and homosexuals be explained? It's proven that they're "sin" have nothing to do with free will.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/7/2004, 8:12 am

I AM ME wrote:the idea of free will though itself is imperfection, the weakness of making wrong choices makes us imperfect. And if we are made perefect other then free will, how can sociopaths and homosexuals be explained? It's proven that they're "sin" have nothing to do with free will.

Humans were created perfect at Adam. With the fall of Adam, humanity became imperfect.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/7/2004, 8:15 am

70x7 wrote:So hell is like endless depression?

Hey thats what I think. :lol:

I'm sure theres a ton more to it but i'm not gonna go making assumptions on exactly what hell is like because the discriptions of it in the Bible are comparisions (Like this.. or like that)

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 6/7/2004, 10:44 am

hmmm thanks for filling me in. But i thought god doesn't make mistakes or imperfections. And Gay men and sociopath's are certainly made by god.

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » 6/7/2004, 11:12 am

The fall of Adam was part of God's plan. Adam had the free will. If God created Adam perfect, then free will is perfect. Just because we don't understand it, doesn't mean it's not perfect.

One-Eye · Post by **One-Eye** » 6/7/2004, 12:31 pm

The meaning of life is to give life meaning. There is nothing (meiner Meinung nach) simpler or more beautiful than that. :nod:

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » 6/7/2004, 12:32 pm

I like that.

One-Eye · Post by **One-Eye** » 6/7/2004, 12:40 pm

I mean, whether you find meaning in religion or love or family or creativity or nature or anything else, the important thing is that you find something that makes life meaningful to you. Otherwise, why are you here?

As for religious viewpoints on the subject, I always thought the Hindu one was interesting. My friend's mother, who is Hindu, once said that there's no need for heaven or hell in the afterlife, because we experience both in our life here. And that with each reincarnation we become more perfect and draw closer to Nirvana, which is an extinguishing of the soul and becoming one with the spirit/source of the universe. So therefore, the meaning of existence is to learn and grow until you are ready to be reunited with the lifeforce from which you came, only when that happens you won't be you anymore, you'll be part of it, one with everything.

Just to throw some nonchristian ideas atcha.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/7/2004, 2:27 pm

Ah, but then the question becomes; why is this spiritual and whole "one" here, and how did it begin?

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » 6/7/2004, 2:56 pm

I'm a pretty curious person, but I'm content to just say "I don't understand but someday I will". There's really no point in straining my poor puny brain to reach some unfathomable conclusion.