A question for the religious and non-religious alike.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/5/2004, 3:51 pm

This is a serious question - not necessarily meant to start debate, but if it does start, keep it friendly.

Looking at the Christian model, the meaning of life is almost like a test, to determine your place in the eternal afterlife (that is, heaven or hell). However, a question arises from this proposition. What, then, is the meaning of heaven and hell? Or God, for that matter? I imagine that if there is an afterlife, we will be doomed to continue to question the meaning of it. If eternal life in heaven is the reason for our living in this world, what is the reason for our living in heaven?

This is a massively important question. Is heaven as big as it gets? I mean, that explains this life, but it leaves even larger questions as to the purpose of the afterlife.

Let's say that the reason for heaven and hell is God. But then what is the reason for God? What came before God?

Where does the chain of causation start? Where does it end? Where do we go? (ignore the OLP reference, it came out by accident :lol:

).

If a reason for heaven can not be established, how can one believe that the reason for this life is heaven? How can one believe there is a reason for life at all?

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 6/5/2004, 3:56 pm

very thought provoking, which is why i haven't pined myself down to anything yet

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/5/2004, 4:02 pm

I can just imagine people arriving at the gates, being awestruck for a few unimaginably long periods of time, and then suddenly saying "Hey, why are we here?"

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 6/5/2004, 4:14 pm

Plato is probably discussing it right now

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/5/2004, 4:16 pm

Sitting in the perfect chair, eating the perfect doughnut. :nod:

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 6/5/2004, 4:16 pm

it's a very good point about god. Who is he? Where did HE come from? Who was his creator? Was he created with our universe? And if so who created the universe? If not, what was there before our universe? Hell who knows maybe we're all just living in a test-tube, a giant experiment. Our god is a mortal creature experimenting.

joe_canadian · Post by **joe_canadian** » 6/5/2004, 4:17 pm

I know that Thomas Aquinas wrote extensively on the matter of God not needing a cause to exist, but it's mostly metaphysics and it hurts my head at this point.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/5/2004, 4:21 pm

Exactly. The majority of our current theories only go as far as explaining this life, which seems to satisfy the vast majority of people. But the question "why" goes on endlessly.

When children as "why?" over and over, it's like they're little philosophers without the pressures of other learned beliefs.

No, you can't have a cookie.
Why?
Because we're leaving.
Why?
Because we're going to a funeral.
Why?
Because grandpa died, sweetie.
Why?
Because God wanted to take him to heaven.
Why?
Because that's where good people go when they die.
Why?
Because God created heaven for us.
Why?
Stop asking questions.

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 6/5/2004, 4:21 pm

hmmm i don't really know my physic's but god is an effect of something. there for does he not need a cause?

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/5/2004, 4:22 pm

joe_canadian wrote:I know that Thomas Aquinas wrote extensively on the matter of God not needing a cause to exist, but it's mostly metaphysics and it hurts my head at this point.

I think (though I don't recall for sure) that all of that goes back to God being omnipotent. However, that doesn't explain what there was before God, and why God would bother creating a whole universe just to test a bunch of damned dirty apes so they could get into the heaven that he created.

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 6/5/2004, 4:25 pm

Yep, it actually seems to be interlocked with the idea of infinity

joe_canadian · Post by **joe_canadian** » 6/5/2004, 4:26 pm

I understand that he dissects the qualities of God's essence, or some such.

It sounds hokey, but I'm pretty sure Aquinas wrote like Descartes and company, taking logical steps from solid premises.

Whatever, I haven't read it so I can't say. Just suggested reading if you're looking for some thoughts on what you're talking about.

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 6/5/2004, 4:29 pm

Waiting to Exist · Post by **Waiting to Exist** » 6/5/2004, 5:17 pm

joe_canadian wrote:I understand that he dissects the qualities of God's essence, or some such.

It sounds hokey, but I'm pretty sure Aquinas wrote like Descartes and company, taking logical steps from solid premises.

Whatever, I haven't read it so I can't say. Just suggested reading if you're looking for some thoughts on what you're talking about.

Yes, he did. Scholarly types found Greek writings, but they were not based around Chrisitanity but logic, so scholars didn't know who to believe. Aquinas allowed them to believe both.

SpiritualJunkie · Post by **SpiritualJunkie** » 6/5/2004, 7:37 pm

There are no solid answers and I fail to understand why philosophers and such keep trying to come up with reasons and such. Not that I haven't asked myself...but thinking about why God may or may not exist just hurts my head. One thing I know for sure...if God supposedly has no beginning and no end...then there was nothing before him. Unimaginable? Maybe. But so is everything supernatural.

joe_canadian · Post by **joe_canadian** » 6/5/2004, 7:41 pm

philosophers, respectable ones anyway, don't "come up" with things.

they try to discern difficult things about the world around us. they do so because these are, as a matter of course, the most important things in life, period.

...whoops, hope that didn't sound standoffish, just trying to respond to what you said.

SpiritualJunkie · Post by **SpiritualJunkie** » 6/5/2004, 7:43 pm

No, I get what you're saying. Philosophers do ask the questions worth asking. It's just unfortunate that so few people care.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/5/2004, 7:48 pm

SpiritualJunkie wrote: Unimaginable? Maybe. But so is everything supernatural.

Couldnt of put it better.

Comming from a Christian Perspective, we cannot understand God. How could we when we are his creations. All we know is what he created, nothing more. We cannot understand anything outside the laws and rules of this universe that God put in place.

"Take a long, hard look. See how great he is--infinite,
greater than anything you could ever imagine or figure out." -Job 36:26 (The Message Translation)

Secondly the point of heaven. The Bible mentions nothing about anything that falls after heaven for heaven is perfect. There are no needs or wants in heaven. Every need is filled therefore there is no longing for something better or wonder at what is beyond heaven because heaven fufills every need. Hope that helps.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/5/2004, 7:51 pm

The point isn't the heaven may not be perfect, the question is why is there a heaven anyways?

joe_canadian · Post by **joe_canadian** » 6/5/2004, 7:52 pm

Yeah, this strays dangerously close the absurdity of the ontological arguement for God, but since heaven is as a matter of essence perfect, it wouldn't need anything further to justify its perfection. Why? No idea, I guess one would have to experience to understand.