"Innocent" on American Idol

[myownsatellite]

Who cares if they're a reality TV star? If they make good music, I'll buy it. I don't like DC's music, so I won't buy it. But there are other American Idols whose music I would buy. It has absolutely nothing to do with how they got their start.

[laurel]

it's so much harder to respect them as an actual artist when all they did to get there was win a popularity contest by singing karaoke.

i'd much rather spend my money on a cd by an actual artist who worked to get where they are. i'm definitely not a fan of sending even more money in american idol's direction. if i like a song, i'll download it. for free. i don't think the american idol empire needs my money. nor do the singers from that show need my support. it's all just a massive money grab that churns out decent singers turned 'good' by electronics that fix their voice. throw some good marketing and crazy gullible teen girls in the mix, and the money comes pouring in.

...so, a wee bit off topic, but essentially - i respect artists. not singers that go through the american idol machine and magically emerge polished and market ready.

[myownsatellite]

I believe DC actually was in a band before and didn't make it, so this was his second chance. A lot of artists who go on AI are like that.

I think that if they make good music, I'll buy it. If I don't like it, I won't buy it. They are just as legitimate as other artists. They may not have had to live out of their car for ten years while eating cat food and brushing their teeth with a dirty sponge and playing guitar for toothless deaf guys in seedy dive bars, but they are still legitimate artists. At least, more legitimate than Britney Spears or other talentless hacks who are only popular because they take their clothes off and shave their heads for attention.

[Dr. Hobo]

I think that if they make good music, I'll buy it. If I don't like it, I won't buy it. They are just as legitimate as other artists. They may not have had to live out of their car for ten years while eating cat food and brushing their teeth with a dirty sponge and playing guitar for toothless deaf guys in seedy dive bars, but they are still legitimate artists. At least, more legitimate than Britney Spears or other talentless hacks who are only popular because they take their clothes off and shave their heads for attention.

ive done so many of those things or wanted to and im neither popular nor rich
i fail at life!

[Lando]

I believe DC actually was in a band before and didn't make it, so this was his second chance. A lot of artists who go on AI are like that.

I think that if they make good music, I'll buy it. If I don't like it, I won't buy it. They are just as legitimate as other artists. They may not have had to live out of their car for ten years while eating cat food and brushing their teeth with a dirty sponge and playing guitar for toothless deaf guys in seedy dive bars, but they are still legitimate artists. At least, more legitimate than Britney Spears or other talentless hacks who are only popular because they take their clothes off and shave their heads for attention.

see this is where i disagree because of the whole set up of reality tv. It's so fake. half of the stuff that makes you like the person (besides their singing ability) on those shows is scripted or planned to get audiences to like them for their personality or their looks which is put together by people working for the show. Why do they do it? Because they make billions off of people calling or texting their votes!!! If they can hook someone into liking a performer enough to continue voting for them, even multiple times, the producers get super rich. Honestly, that's what the show is about... it's not about giving a person a chance to make it big in the music industry. While a few of them have done okay, that's actually RARE for an american idol or other reality tv star winner. They basically disappear most of the time because after American Idol can't make a profit off of them anymore and they're not selling tons of albums compared to when they were fresh or the most recent winner, so they stop getting the recording contract money and then become a has been. If they're popular enough to keep a fan base and money coming in for the people funding their career, which is rare, with the exception of a couple of winners, then yeah, maybe they'll become a legitimate artist. If not, then they'll end up living out of the van for ten years AFTER they've had their fame. The only difference will be that they won't be able to make a comeback because people are going to go "oh that's that old american idol star" and no record companies or even audiences are going to give them a chance. That's the price they pay for going the instant 15 minutes of fame route rather than actually working for that to be their career... It's a popularity contest. Once you're not popular enough to bring in money for your creators, you're yesterday's news, you're garbage to the world... Same goes for any pop artist that can't keep their fan base. The only difference here is that most of them will have enough money and street cred to fund their own future albums because American Idol or similar licences don't have them by the balls. Is it any wonder why the show started out being called "Pop Idol"? It's not always about who's actually the best or the most worthy of winning, but rather who's the most popular to audiences for what the image/package the show's created for them.

Can some of them sing? of course, or the show wouldn't succeed... but will 95% of them be anyone in the music industry in 10 years? Absolutely not. If that's where you want to spend your money, go right ahead and buy the albums! I'll even help you out, Milli Vanilli albums are selling for much cheaper these days! You might have to find a place that sells used albums, but be sure to pick one up when you're out buying the American Idol cds.

[Matt.]

edit: never mind.

[myownsatellite]

I'm not defending David Cook per se (if you read my previous bashing of him you'd know that), I'm defending the buying of American Idol music if I LIKE it, which is the whole point of it in the first place. I'm not going to buy something just because someone's packaged it all nice and neat and said "buy this because it's shiny and neat!" If I don't LIKE it, I'm not going to spend my money on it. I don't see anything wrong with that. I'm not sitting here defending American Idol or the people who go on it. I'm just saying that calling them crap and refusing to buy their work just because they were on reality TV is a little silly. If you like it, buy it. If you don't like it, then don't listen to it. How much simpler could it be?

There are definitely some legitimate artists who come out of that show, and then there are those who just repackage the same old crap. Daughtry was actually a really good result of the show - and I'm actually glad he wasn't named American Idol because he and his band make some really great music. Tamyra Gray or however you spell her name has a hell of a lot of talent, and her music is really great. Why shouldn't I buy that if I like it? What's wrong with wanting to buy music and support artists that I like, despite their start on American Idol?

I just think you guys are blowing my whole point way out of proportion and taking it in a different direction than what I'm talking about.

[Random Name]

To be honest... I think the whole "they are not artists!" thing is a bit over.

I really don't care how a musician got to fame. Sure there are a ton of amazing bands who went and drove coast to coast and worked their way to the top. There are also a lot of crappy bands that do that. Does it really matter? Does that in some way make songs better or worse? I like a lot of debut albums, so are they not considered good enough because those bands haven't been around long enough to produce anything meaningful? of course not.

That's just how the industry works is all. If you want to support local talent, then I am all for it. In fact I do it a lot. But saying that Idol is only a money-making machine is like calling cows milk-making machines. It's painfully obvious, and not relevant to the music that they make afterwards, at all. I still don't support Idol because I feel like I'm being patronized as just a viewer... but it's not like pop music is coming from a much better source these days. I'm sure Rhianna didn't tour the country in a van, homeless either. I guess she isn't worthy to be listened to.

Being an artist or performer or entertainer or whatever you want to call them is still legitimate in the music industry. It's entertainment. Not 'who can prove their true art!' If you just don't like pop music, then that's an entirely different subject, isn't it? Even bringing up other pop acts proves it. But it's not really true. It's nice in theory but a lot of pop acts from 10 years ago as still relevant. (See: Britney Spears, Nsync, Blink 182, Mandy Moore, Mariah Carey...)
And a lot of the Idol contestants from the first and second seasons of the shows are still relevant (see: Tamyra Gray, Kelly Clarkson, Jennifer Hudson, Hedley..). Their careers have nothing to do with an Idol curse, but more or less their career decisions.

I don't know if I am really trying to make a point, but it just seems silly to be arguing so much about what is "art" and what is not respected. To me, it's like saying Elton John not to be respected because he wrote 'Tiny Dancer' with Bernie Taupin. And that we should shrug that off because Hinder worked their butts off playing shows, and recording demos, and talking to the right people, to make the true art that is 'Lips of an Angel', which is clearly far superior.

[Lando]

But saying that Idol is only a money-making machine is like calling cows milk-making machines. It's painfully obvious, and not relevant to the music that they make afterwards, at all.

Not true in the least. The artists that are on american idol are given an image that is created FOR them, because it's marketable. It doesn't have to be anything near what they want to do, but since they don't have creative control and it's all about making money, they're given an image that will sell and even told to perform and record songs they wouldn't ever write on their own. It's not where a lot of them want to be, but it's better than where they were before... which is nowhere... however if they can hold on to their fan base and enough money to make records on their own 10 years down the road when they're free from their American Idol contracts, then maybe they can be legitimate artists and true to themselves... but as I said before that will be rare for any reality tv star, whether it's music or another field altogether. So yes, actually it's completely and directly relevant to the music they make afterwards while under contract from the Idol franchise.

[Blindman-Ted]

Under Contract

[myownsatellite]

Lando, look at all the people Raine writes songs for. They don't write their own songs. Most artists don't write their own songs anymore. How is that different from American Idol? How are they less worthy of support from a fan base that likes them?

But like I said, that's NOT what I'm talking about, and that's not really what Sarah's talking about either.

I'm getting sick of being argued against all the time on here. I was talking about music and how if I like the music I'll buy it, and suddenly I'm told I'm feeding the monster because I'm supporting American Idol artists and those people don't deserve to be supported. Fine, then don't support them because you believe they're all stuck in the cash cow. But look at everyone who's outlived their AI days and you'll see that AI has no control over the rest of their careers. So chill out, because I'm not arguing about the merits of American Idol. I'm arguing about the music. IF I LIKE IT, I'LL BUY IT. End of story. Why is that such a difficult concept to accept?

Jeezus.

Anyway, I'm done with the conversation since I'm obviously "wrong."

[laurel]

...wow.

i didn't think this was an argument. people have just been voicing their opinions about the topic. why is it every time we get a good topic going, that people are actually ACTIVE in (cause that's getting damn rare around here...) there's always someone that gets mad because not everyone agrees with their views, and storms off?

i'd much rather see a conversation like this, with people voicing their views, than one line about something completely random, which gives no room for any conversation.

i guess stimulating conversation just doesn't work around here, cause too many toes seem to end up getting stepped on.

[Random Name]

But saying that Idol is only a money-making machine is like calling cows milk-making machines. It's painfully obvious, and not relevant to the music that they make afterwards, at all.

Not true in the least. The artists that are on american idol are given an image that is created FOR them, because it's marketable. It doesn't have to be anything near what they want to do, but since they don't have creative control and it's all about making money, they're given an image that will sell and even told to perform and record songs they wouldn't ever write on their own. It's not where a lot of them want to be, but it's better than where they were before... which is nowhere... however if they can hold on to their fan base and enough money to make records on their own 10 years down the road when they're free from their American Idol contracts, then maybe they can be legitimate artists and true to themselves... but as I said before that will be rare for any reality tv star, whether it's music or another field altogether. So yes, actually it's completely and directly relevant to the music they make afterwards while under contract from the Idol franchise.

That's not true. The people that sign onto the show know exactly what its all about. Everyone knows how the contestants are supposed to dress and act and sing... and if that is what they signed up for, who are you to criticize? They wanted to join up for this, and they didn't have to sell part of their soul to get it. Cheerleaders are not being creatively oppressed either, beucasse they have to wear the same uniform. If someone didn't want the stigma (or benefits) of Idol attached to their name, then they wouldn't have joined the show. It's as simple as that.

And if they want creative control, I'm pretty sure they could get it, because they have all illustrated it. It's not like Clay Aiken and Chris Daughtry are playing the exact same molded character, and they came from the exact same position on different seasons. Look at the winners, since that is apparently what we are talking about. None of the winners have been horrible trainwrecks (on American, anyways. ) They all go on to do the genre of music they desire the most, and many have been successful, and surprisingly genuine on their albums. They are obviously not forced into the exact same cookie cutter image if you have to include Kelly Clarkson, Fantasia Barrino and Carrie Underwood in that, either.

People are not 'bound' to American Idol contracts. Lots of contestants get record deals right out of the gate, and rush out shitty albums and flop. But is that really any different than 95% of all music? They are given an image and told when and where to preform because that is what record companies do. Any record contract will likely require some requirement of promotion, and if they already have a public image then they will play off that. It's not some brilliant profit scheme because most of these albums end up disappearing, and not making a money. It's using what they are already given. Every single record contract in the universe has been based around the idea that record companies can make money off of those who they sign. There is no need to single out Idol as doing that exclusively.

[myownsatellite]

...wow.

i didn't think this was an argument. people have just been voicing their opinions about the topic. why is it every time we get a good topic going, that people are actually ACTIVE in (cause that's getting damn rare around here...) there's always someone that gets mad because not everyone agrees with their views, and storms off?

i'd much rather see a conversation like this, with people voicing their views, than one line about something completely random, which gives no room for any conversation.

i guess stimulating conversation just doesn't work around here, cause too many toes seem to end up getting stepped on.

You may not feel like you're being argumentative, but to me that's how it comes across, and I actually feel it a LOT around here, because what you might see as "stimulating conversation" I feel often as an attack on my own opinions. This isn't the first time I've felt like this. I don't say anything about it most of the time because I know I'll get the reaction you just gave me. You (Laurel) have agreed with me I think once in the history of our acquaintance on this site, and sure I may take it personally but the constant "discussion" feels more like active argument and I get so sick of always feeling like the "wrong" one around here.

I'm not mad that people are disagreeing. I get mad because no matter what I say, I'm always the one in the wrong. I write a comment about liking some people's music who come from American Idol and I get a huge ranty post back about the capitalist greed of the show and how it's terrible to support it. That's not at all what I'm talking about and it's silly to discount musicians just because they got their start in reality TV. I may be a music snob, but at least I base my opinions on the music itself and not how people started out. And that's what I'm talking about, I'm not talking about supporting a show and its far-reaching influence, I'm talking about supporting the musicians who make good music, regardless of their beginnings.

But since I'm obviously cranky and apparently misreading all your comments, I'm just going to take a break from the internet and try to stop sounding like a whiny bitch.

[crustine]

i will wage in shortly...too much small text for my tired old eyes.

[Lando]

all I can say is that I didn't say it was wrong for anyone to buy american idol's stuff, is it fake and contrived by the producers rather than the artists? absolutely. there's proof, considering they have to sign contracts before they've officially won. I think the final 10 contestants have to sign a sort of contract, it's not completely binding like the winner of American Idol, but it's a safeguard, in case the show thinks they can "USE" the contestant to make money off of... which is what they do. Yes Raine writes music for a lot of talentless artists... a lot of people do... what I was saying is that they are stripped of creative control and of course they know what they're getting into. Like I stated, where did they come from? NOWHERE. 99% of anyone going on that show is going to say getting anywhere with music is better than where they were, once again, I said this already, so need to repeat, but are they giving up personal decisions and control? Absolutely.

So in most cases, with MOST pop music, you're buying an image or a voice, not an artist... You're buying an entertainer like suthy was talking about. Everyone knows the obvious differences between real artists and pop stars who are just entertainers and only voices or images. the guys in suits are the artists, the ones you don't see. they're the ones who created the music and lyrics. pop music just needs a scantily clad girl or emo looking boy to entice people to spend money on it. that's all i was stating, it's a dirty industry, like most are, and they're all about making money. buy it if you like it, but don't try to defend it as being just as legitimate as other artists, they're just not the same.

as for this whole attack thing, I was last responding to Sarah's post... This all started by me saying who's dumb enough to buy american idol content... I said that because it's true. I didn't mean a person's dumb if you put money into something that definitely doesn't need any more support, but rather that there are way better ways to spend your money. If the contestants and artists were walking away with hundreds of millions of dollars, then I'd definitely defend the program, but they're getting a really shitty deal compared to the producers who make billions off votes alone... it's still better than where they started, but it's hard to support them when you're not really supporting the winners, but the people behind the curtains who DON'T deserve it.

The whole like attack comment like toootally feels like high school drama again. oh and like, did you hear? katie's dating rob again! like OMG!

[laurel]

...wow.

i didn't think this was an argument. people have just been voicing their opinions about the topic. why is it every time we get a good topic going, that people are actually ACTIVE in (cause that's getting damn rare around here...) there's always someone that gets mad because not everyone agrees with their views, and storms off?

i'd much rather see a conversation like this, with people voicing their views, than one line about something completely random, which gives no room for any conversation.

i guess stimulating conversation just doesn't work around here, cause too many toes seem to end up getting stepped on.

You may not feel like you're being argumentative, but to me that's how it comes across, and I actually feel it a LOT around here, because what you might see as "stimulating conversation" I feel often as an attack on my own opinions. This isn't the first time I've felt like this. I don't say anything about it most of the time because I know I'll get the reaction you just gave me. You (Laurel) have agreed with me I think once in the history of our acquaintance on this site, and sure I may take it personally but the constant "discussion" feels more like active argument and I get so sick of always feeling like the "wrong" one around here.

I'm not mad that people are disagreeing. I get mad because no matter what I say, I'm always the one in the wrong. I write a comment about liking some people's music who come from American Idol and I get a huge ranty post back about the capitalist greed of the show and how it's terrible to support it. That's not at all what I'm talking about and it's silly to discount musicians just because they got their start in reality TV. I may be a music snob, but at least I base my opinions on the music itself and not how people started out. And that's what I'm talking about, I'm not talking about supporting a show and its far-reaching influence, I'm talking about supporting the musicians who make good music, regardless of their beginnings.

But since I'm obviously cranky and apparently misreading all your comments, I'm just going to take a break from the internet and try to stop sounding like a whiny bitch.

my opinions get shot down and trod on a lot. you're not the only one who has their opinions argued against. it's just a matter of being able to take those shots against your opinion in stride. every day, you're confronted with people who don't like what you have to say. it's just how life is. i don't care if people voice their own opinions and they conflict with mine. i also don't view it as argumentative. perhaps you do, but to me, it is a good conversation. sure, not the easiest, and those types of conversations get emotions running high...but it's good to see people actually defending their views, and getting involved in what's being discussed.

no one is wrong. as long as you can back up what you have to say, you're not wrong. everything that is being said is an opinion, pure and simple. sure, i might have something to say that doesn't agree with what you think, but i'm not going into it thinking 'ooooh, i'm gonna knock her down so bad!' no. i'm just trying to get my point across, and try to understand yours at the same time. if i were arguing, i would be a hell of a lot meaner, bitchier, and rude. i don't know if you noticed, but nowhere did i throw in a personal attack. i talked about the issue. i never have once said 'oh, you're an idiot for thinking that'. never. that is an attack. you want to see one, i'll give you one. but i much prefer not to that, because i enjoy discussion. not attacking. i have nothing against you....but if your opinion differs from mine, i have no problem stating my opinion, and defending it. that goes for any person's opinion on this site.

i don't understand how you always think you're in the wrong. i've felt that way before, too. i honestly do not believe there is a right and wrong in most discussions, unless they are completely fact based. if a discussion is opinion based, there is no right and wrong.

and my first comment that got all this started? i said it was "a wee bit off topic...". it never even had to be commented on in the first place, nor blown out of proportion as it was.

[Lando]

OMG LAUREL LIKE DRAMA QUEEN MUCH!

And yeah I know where everyone's coming from and I respect your opinions. I do try to support my opinion with as much fact as possible, considering I work in the television industry, I see the way it works and how dirty the entertainment industry in general can be. I know a lot of producers and people in general working in movies, television and music... a lot of them will voice a very similar opinion to mine because they've experienced certain aspects that have been mentioned in their own careers.

[xjsb125]

For the record, I like all of you and your opinions.

Robbo said it best, and I'll say it again. Art appreciation is all subjective to the viewer. No one person's opinion is more right or wrong than another's.

[Johnny]

For the record, I don't like Lando! He's a doodoo head!

The rest of you I like.