Bad Catholic Church!!

lora · Post by **lora** » 10/9/2003, 5:33 pm

and people wonder why i abandoned the catholic faith. jeeze.

starseed_10 · Post by **starseed_10** » 10/9/2003, 5:36 pm

has anybody even considered that this isn't the view of the Catholic Church?

the android · Post by **the android** » 10/9/2003, 5:40 pm

I agree with Axtech...I really don't think they're condoning unsafe sex, because that would be completely against what they believe in, and they're not that stupid. However, at the same time, they're blatantly lying to everyone by saying that condoms cannot block AIDS or HIV...certainly as a ploy to further condemn any and all recreational sex.

However, very little the church says nowadays holds very much water because they obviously have no qualms about lying.

It's religion vs. science all over again, I guess.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 10/9/2003, 5:53 pm

Rufus Wainwright wrote:Ahem, let me be the first person to tell you to shut the hell up.

I don't know if you've been awake in any of your history classes, but they had these things called wars back in the day. Believe it or not, but most of those wars were based solely on religion.

Yes, Christians did kill Muslims and Jews before. They killed morons like you saying that everything about everything in the world is corrupt due to religion. But you seem to neglect that every religion killed people to get where they're at. Jews killed Christians and Muslims, but you don't speak out about that. Muslims killed lots of Christians and Jews, but you don't speak out about that.

All I am trying to say is, if you trash one religion for murder, you better trash them all. And just to let you know, not everyone is trendy and anti-God like you are, not everyone can be a teenager forever. People believe in this stuff.

I was talking about the church killing people for challenging their beliefs. Philosophers, scientists and the lot.

And trust me, I've thought out my beliefs. I'm not just some teeny "I'm so cool 'cause I hate god" type of person.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 10/9/2003, 6:00 pm

Actually, I don't see what my beliefs have to do with the actions of the Catholic church. I'm an agnostic atheist (I'm agnostic, but my beliefs lean mostly towards atheism).

joe_canadian · Post by **joe_canadian** » 10/9/2003, 6:11 pm

wanan wrote:
Axtech wrote:No, they're not promoting unsafe sex. They're saying that any sex other than for the sake of reproduction is wrong.

They know the facts about AID's and other STD's yet still, in a broad sense, tell people that using condoms is wrong. The language they use glosses it over by saying sex should only be for reproduction, that it's a sin. Some people are going to listen to the church and catch something because of this outdated belief. That is promoting unsafe sex, they're just using different wording.

Excuse me?

Who do you think you are, making proclamations like that?

Because sex without marriage is more common these days that should make it not a sin in their faith?

Rob's right. They're just holding true to their belief that any sex not for reproduction is wrong, albeit not in the smartest manner.

And Alan's right, imho.

starvingeyes · Post by **starvingeyes** » 10/9/2003, 6:39 pm

They know the facts about AID's and other STD's yet still, in a broad sense, tell people that using condoms is wrong. The language they use glosses it over by saying sex should only be for reproduction, that it's a sin. Some people are going to listen to the church and catch something because of this outdated belief. That is promoting unsafe sex, they're just using different wording.

uh, nope. the church is not promoting "unsafe sex", because they're promoting not having sex until you're married, and only ever having sex with one person.

boring, maybe, but definately STD-proof.

they're spreading these lies about condoms to persuade people to think "gee, if i can't guarantee safety from aids, even with a condom, then fuck it! i'm going to go ahead and not have sex until i'm married, and i'm only going to have sex to have kids, and only with my wife".

wanan · Post by **wanan** » 10/9/2003, 6:42 pm

joe_canadian wrote:Excuse me?

Who do you think you are, making proclamations like that?

Because sex without marriage is more common these days that should make it not a sin in their faith?

Rob's right. They're just holding true to their belief that any sex not for reproduction is wrong, albeit not in the smartest manner.

I have every right to make a proclamation like that. I have a right to state my opinion and you have every right to disagree.

And Alan's right, imho.

First of all I am not anti-God I am anti-religion. Not just anti-Catholic, anti-religion. That is a huge difference. I am not a teenager. My beliefs are based on my experiences with religion not an attempt at being "trendy". I respect people that are religious, many of my friends are, I also expect my beliefs to be treated with respect as well.

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 10/9/2003, 7:46 pm

See, my beliefs are that if people are going to speak of the ills of the Christian church, why don't we start some threads about how evil Muslims and Jews are? I mean, back in their time, they killed lots of people that didn't agree with their views, yet no one seems to point that out. It's always about the ills of Christians, and most importantly, the Roman Catholic church. No one seems to remember all religions killed people that didn't believe in it, yet no one seems to be so angsty about religion unless it's about Christianity, and more specifically, Catholicism.

Yeah, and I used to be Roman Catholic, but I'm not practicing anymore. I don't believe in much of anything, because no specific religion appeals to me now. I actually plan on trying a new religion each month until I find the one that fits me. I just felt the need to educate Robbo on backing off about murder relating to religion, because it happens all the time. Muslims killed people for not converting to Islam back in the late 1400s, and I am damn sure you atheists have killed people with religious backgrounds too.

happening fish · Post by **happening fish** » 10/9/2003, 9:27 pm

Well, back on topic, the way I understand this article is that the Catholic Church, an institution of obvious influence and authority, is giving its followers incorrect information which could be potentially extremely harmful to them. Is this assertation incorrect?

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 10/9/2003, 9:46 pm

Nowhere in the article is it saying that people should stop using condoms and just go for the gold and try to get AIDS or something. It's a scare tactic to say that no matter what you do, if you have sex before you're married, you're not safe from consequences. That's just how it goes. I don't see how saying what they're saying is harmful. It's just a plea for people to stop fucking around like no one's business before they get married. That's understandable.

Like it's been said before, had there been a statement issued by the pope saying that condoms don't prevent you from getting AIDS? Last time I looked into this, there hasn't been. It's just the words of a couple of ignorant priests who know nothing about condoms. Stop condemning the entire church for the words of a couple of crazies. Those white people in the KKK don't like them there black folk, but does that make the entire white population completely racist? That's the same angle we should view this story from.

Narbus · Post by **Narbus** » 10/9/2003, 9:55 pm

starseed_10 wrote:has anybody even considered that this isn't the view of the Catholic Church?

alan wrote:Like it's been said before, had there been a statement issued by the pope saying that condoms don't prevent you from getting AIDS? Last time I looked into this, there hasn't been.

Apparently you didn't read the part where "the president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: 'The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.' "

I see the key words "Cardinal," and "president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family." What do those mean to you?

I'm a giver. I just keep on giving. Give, give, give.

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 10/9/2003, 10:03 pm

Yes, I read the Carndinal part, and yes, I know that's the second-highest level you can achieve in the Catholic church, but the whole long title for him, I have no idea what that means. Now you have to remember, lots of people can say stupid things. Remember how George Bush called our war against Iraq a "Crusade" before it started? He made it sound all religious like. Now he's the president of the USA, so does that mean that all the Americans thought the war was a crusade against Muslims, or even wanted the war? People can say stupid things. Just because one moron says one thing doesn't mean it's the view for the entire group.

Narbus · Post by **Narbus** » 10/9/2003, 10:21 pm

Oh, no, I never said it was the view of the whole group. In fact, I'm sure that with only the slightest of efforts I could find Catholics who think that these claims are a load of tosh.

What I did want to convey was that a very influential organization is intentionally spreading lies simply to further their own agenda, not out of any concern whatsoever for the health and well-being of those people unfortunate enough to buy into the lies. The Vatican has long held the belief that any kind of birth control is immoral as sex should exist only for procreation, and their desire to further this agenda has pushed them to come out with some bald-faced lies about AIDS and condoms.

Also, he's not just a Cardinal, he's the head of one of the Vatican's Pontifical Councils. In this area, he does in fact speak for the Vatican. This is offically the Vatican's stance on the use of condoms to prevent AIDS.
Also of note: How much did a lot of people in the USA thinking that war is bad keep people from dying in the war? Not damn much. Same thing applies here. Even with a lot of Catholics not believing these lies, there will be a lot of other people who suffer for them.

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 10/9/2003, 11:23 pm

i would like to remind everyone that in Africa there is a HUGE issue with just educated peope on condoms. In Many contries, traditions, lack of knowledge and lies keep africans from using condoms. It's part of the reason aids is doing so much damage there. People are just begining to understand how to use them. Let's deal with the aids epidemic and get some condoms out there. The church can deal with the sin of sex AFTER the aids thing is cleared up. And lets face it, it'sgoing to be easier to stop aids with condoms then not having sex. The last thing the doubtful people of these countries need to hear is that condoms don't work from a very trusted source. Because while here we all know they do, but in africa it's a very diffrent situation, and a push from the church can easily destroy all the aids work we've been working so hard on

PS i'm not anti-religon, i'm even pretty sure in my belief of a god. But i'm still waiting to choose a religon. I was raised with NO religous tain in my life. I mean that by, my parents never promted ANYTHING, they answered any questions i had on any religon, and left it to me to decide, WITH OUT A RAISED BIAS. Because of this upbringing i can respect all religons and make a clear headed pure decision on my faith with out bias. I only consider it faith if you come upon it by yourself and whole hearted believe in it because you've tried everything else. Being born a raised catholic makes you of the weekest faith in the catholic church in my oppion, because they never scrutinized and found faith in anything, tehy were born into it, whether they know it or not their parents played a role in their decision even later in life. Which is why i disagree with baptising someone before they know what the church is. A person should fully understand teh faith and truly believe in it before claiming to be of a certain faith.

END OF RANT, I know it's long but please read it, alot of people could learn from it

Narbus · Post by **Narbus** » 10/10/2003, 12:01 am

Clumsyboy wrote:PS i'm not anti-religon, i'm even pretty sure in my belief of a god. But i'm still waiting to choose a religon. I was raised with NO religous tain in my life. I mean that by, my parents never promted ANYTHING, they answered any questions i had on any religon, and left it to me to decide, WITH OUT A RAISED BIAS.

Let's get this out of the way: Your parents are not the only source of bias in your life. You are not some wonderful "blank slate" of religion just because your parents didn't raise you in any certain religion.

Because of this upbringing i can respect all religons and make a clear headed pure decision on my faith with out bias. I only consider it faith if you come upon it by yourself and whole hearted believe in it because you've tried everything else.

Frankly there's too much of "everything else" out there to try for your idea to work. Even in Bible-based religions, there's Mormons, Catholics, Lutherans, Protestants, Fundamentalists, Episcopalians, and so on. And there's sects of each of these religions, too, and after splits, and all and on there's a whole mess of purely Bible-based religions out there.
Long story short, you cannot "try everything," nor do you have to. All you have to do is try things until you find something that works for you.

Being born a raised catholic makes you of the weekest faith in the catholic church in my oppion, because they never scrutinized and found faith in anything, tehy were born into it, whether they know it or not their parents played a role in their decision even later in life.

And your parents chose to raise you without a faith. So I guess you must be in a very poor position to judge religion, since you have never scrutinized the foundation for your questioning nature.

Which is why i disagree with baptising someone before they know what the church is. A person should fully understand teh faith and truly believe in it before claiming to be of a certain faith.

END OF RANT, I know it's long but please read it, alot of people could learn from it

Parents have a right to raise their child in the manner they see fit (let's not play the "so they can beat tehm!?" card, okay? Obvious lines are drawn).

End of counter-rant. Not quite as long, but well.

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 10/10/2003, 12:16 am

first of all, i don't consider myself a completelt clean slate. But i DO consider myself more open minded then many of my catholic friends when it comes to religon, i was never forced into anything as a child, and i was never taught by my parents that a certain religon was wrong or right.

Second, i'll never completly narrow myself down to a sect, i would be happy with just a general religon, the farthest i woudl take it if i came to believe in christianity the most would be to narrow it down to Protestant or Catholic. I was speaking of deciding a general faith

My parents concentrated on raising me with morals. They believed if they instilled strong morals and free thought i would not have to be told anything, i could make my own decisions. I've never needed to be worried about or watched over by my parnets wen it came to bad decisions like drugs because in most cases i've used my morals and judgment to stay away from such things. My parents DID teach me about religon, but they didn't stress anyone, they would just explain the diffrent ones to me, and answer my questions as best they could. I have had exposure to religon, i know more about the bible and the christian faith then ALL of my Christin friends who regularily attended church (one even attended a catholic school)

And i still agree with what many protestants practise. A child should make the decision to enter the church through: belief, debate, and morals. Not because their parents thought it was the thing to do. Parents can do whatever tey wish with their child, all i'm doing is saying what I believe to be right.

Venom · Post by **Venom** » 10/10/2003, 6:29 am

Just for the record I am an equal religion hater. They all get the blame for billions of deaths as the result of war. In moy opinion religion is the ROOT of all evil. They are all hypocritical.

they're spreading these lies about condoms to persuade people to think "gee, if i can't guarantee safety from aids, even with a condom, then fuck it! i'm going to go ahead and not have sex until i'm married, and i'm only going to have sex to have kids, and only with my wife".

And how many people do they think will actually adhere to that logic??? For MOST people the temptation to have sex is far to much to wait. What they are in essence doing is killing more people that don't know any better. I guess they can be hypocritical about killing but not about having sex before marriage. Can anyone explain this to me?

doug · Post by **doug** » 10/10/2003, 10:47 am

Why do you hate religon, venom?

thirdhour · Post by **thirdhour** » 10/10/2003, 5:44 pm

they're spreading these lies about condoms to persuade people to think "gee, if i can't guarantee safety from aids, even with a condom, then fuck it! i'm going to go ahead and not have sex until i'm married, and i'm only going to have sex to have kids, and only with my wife".

I acknowledge that that is the reason for lying, but that doesnt make it acceptable. people may take this in a completly different way and think "fuck it! if condoms dont do any good anyway, why use them?" (as far as i know) the majority of people know where AIDS/HIV come from, but this hasn't stopped people from having sex and spreading the virus. as far as i can see it, education (meaning usually telling people the TRUTH...) is the only way of stopping the virus.

unsafe sex is not what they are promoting and what they WANT, but its what they're going to GET.