Bad Catholic Church!!

Narbus · Post by **Narbus** » 10/9/2003, 3:10 pm

The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which the HIV virus can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.
The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to the HIV virus.

A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.

The church's claims are revealed in a BBC1 Panorama programme, Sex and the Holy City, to be broadcast on Sunday. The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.

"These margins of uncertainty... should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

The organisation says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .

Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses".

The Vatican's Cardinal Trujillo said: "They are wrong about that... this is an easily recognisable fact."

The church opposes any kind of contraception because it claims it breaks the link between sex and procreation - a position Pope John Paul II has fought to defend.

In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have the HIV virus - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability. The archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, said: "Aids... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms."

Sex and the Holy City includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choirmaster against using condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

(source)

So, do we hit them with a newspaper and rub their noses in it?

happening fish · Post by **happening fish** » 10/9/2003, 3:16 pm

How irresponsible!

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 10/9/2003, 3:21 pm

I can't really say I'm surprised, though. Looking back through history, this certainly isn't the first time the Catholic Church has done stupid things to impose their views.

Random Name · Post by **Random Name** » 10/9/2003, 3:28 pm

Ok, this is a perfect example of how the media has biases. I am not saying that anything in this artical is incorrect, but more that what their saying is taken directly out of context.

The catholic church is not all about HIV and AIDS. They don't want this to happen, that isnt the point. The point is that the catholic church has never supported any form of birth control from day one. They don't believe that anyone should take the pill or use condoms because thats the way they are. They think everything should happen naturally. This isnt just in third world, AIDS infested countries, that also includes North America.

What is funny is peoples take on this. Back when the pill was first introduced there was a hige controversy because of the churches stand. Now, in North America 90% of Christians don't believe in the same thing. Interesting how times change.

So now the church is trying to promote their belifes again. Can you blame them? There has been an obvious downfall in the amount of religious people in recent generations. I mean you people reading this likely have thought the same thing. So the church wants more people to come back. This means teaching people about their stand on things and what they believe in.

I really can't see any way that the the Christian religion is against helping the AIDS epidemic, they are just following their values.

And for the record I think this has been my first real rant. YAY!

wanan · Post by **wanan** » 10/9/2003, 3:29 pm

Another reason to add to my list of why I don't like organized religion.

In an age of STD's it is so irresponsible for the Catholic Church to still be promoting unsafe sex. People don't always have sex because they want to have a kid, get over it.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 10/9/2003, 3:31 pm

The point isn't that the Church is for AIDs, but that they're resorting to dangerous lies to promote their own beliefs.

Random Name · Post by **Random Name** » 10/9/2003, 3:32 pm

FYI, I am completly against everything that they do stand for though. Almost all of the catholic churches stances on modern day issues are old and dated and have no relivant impact on me anymore.

joe_canadian · Post by **joe_canadian** » 10/9/2003, 3:42 pm

wanan wrote:People don't always have sex because they want to have a kid, get over it.

That is, to them, a sin.

You have no right to tell them to just get over it.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 10/9/2003, 3:47 pm

Just as they have no right to tell people that condoms don't work.

Narbus · Post by **Narbus** » 10/9/2003, 3:55 pm

joe_canadian wrote:You have no right to tell them to just get over it.

Actually, since they are, in fact, lying (despite a rather stern and straightforward commandment against it), we do have the right to call them on it.

PS: To Random Name:
"There has been an obvious downfall in the amount of religious people in recent generations."

Yes, and do you know what also causes a downfall in the amount of religious people out there? That's right, DEATH DOES.

I reiterate: Bad church.

starseed_10 · Post by **starseed_10** » 10/9/2003, 4:03 pm

wanan wrote:Another reason to add to my list of why I don't like organized religion.

In an age of STD's it is so irresponsible for the Catholic Church to still be promoting unsafe sex. People don't always have sex because they want to have a kid, get over it.

The church doesnt promote unsafe sex. They dont promote sex outside of marriage at all. if people were listening to the church this whole aids thing wouldn't be much of an issue to begin with.

also, that article is most likely taken way out of context. i dont think the front offices of the church would be out promoting lies like that. I'm sure there are priests out there who might say this sort of thing, but i feel pretty safe in saying this is not the Catholic Church's believe on condoms.
Yes, they feel using condoms is a sin, but they wouldn't lie like this.

It's like the sex scandle thing, a few disobient priests doesn't mean the vatican is corrupt.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 10/9/2003, 4:04 pm

This is the same church that burned people because of their beliefs.

Again, I'm not surprised.

The whole burning thing was a long time ago. I guess this is what you'd call a "step up".

starseed_10 · Post by **starseed_10** » 10/9/2003, 4:08 pm

Do you think the Pope is behind this?

i sure dont... and if he's not, then please dont blame the church. It's like saying a country sucks because it's home to a few criminals.

wanan · Post by **wanan** » 10/9/2003, 4:15 pm

starseed_10 wrote: The church doesnt promote unsafe sex. They dont promote sex outside of marriage at all. if people were listening to the church this whole aids thing wouldn't be much of an issue to begin with.

By telling people not to use condoms they are promoting unsafe sex because that's what unsafe sex is. Many people today don't wait for marriage and the church has every right to preach that as a sin, not every one is going to follow their rules. This is just another example of how out of touch the church is.

Second, in regards to "if people were listening to the church". Not everyone is a part of the all mighty Catholic Church, or Christianity in general, despite the best attempts of the church. People can believe what they like, but continuing to denounce condoms and birth control is dangerous in the time we live.

wanan · Post by **wanan** » 10/9/2003, 4:28 pm

joe_canadian wrote:
wanan wrote:People don't always have sex because they want to have a kid, get over it.

That is, to them, a sin.

You have no right to tell them to just get over it.

You're right, perhaps that was bad phrasing on my part. They have every right to believe that, and I have every right to criticize their doctrine.

joe_canadian · Post by **joe_canadian** » 10/9/2003, 4:30 pm

Narbus wrote:
joe_canadian wrote:You have no right to tell them to just get over it.

Actually, since they are, in fact, lying (despite a rather stern and straightforward commandment against it), we do have the right to call them on it.

I meant specifically with regards to people having casual sex. They believe it is wrong. They don't have to get over it. Lying about condoms is an awfully stupid way of getting that message across though, that is indefensible. I don't even like the Catholic Church, I think it's an abominable institution. But their basic beliefs should not be attacked.

starseed_10 · Post by **starseed_10** » 10/9/2003, 4:31 pm

they're just following their beliefs.... denouncing condomns and premarital sex.

but either way, one article wont make me believe the Church is doing any of this "condoms dont prevent aids" crap.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 10/9/2003, 4:37 pm

wanan wrote:
starseed_10 wrote: The church doesnt promote unsafe sex. They dont promote sex outside of marriage at all. if people were listening to the church this whole aids thing wouldn't be much of an issue to begin with.

By telling people not to use condoms they are promoting unsafe sex because that's what unsafe sex is. Many people today don't wait for marriage and the church has every right to preach that as a sin, not every one is going to follow their rules. This is just another example of how out of touch the church is.

No, they're not promoting unsafe sex. They're saying that any sex other than for the sake of reproduction is wrong.

wanan · Post by **wanan** » 10/9/2003, 5:10 pm

Axtech wrote:No, they're not promoting unsafe sex. They're saying that any sex other than for the sake of reproduction is wrong.

They know the facts about AID's and other STD's yet still, in a broad sense, tell people that using condoms is wrong. The language they use glosses it over by saying sex should only be for reproduction, that it's a sin. Some people are going to listen to the church and catch something because of this outdated belief. That is promoting unsafe sex, they're just using different wording.

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 10/9/2003, 5:27 pm

Axtech wrote:This is the same church that burned people because of their beliefs.

Again, I'm not surprised.

The whole burning thing was a long time ago. I guess this is what you'd call a "step up".

Ahem, let me be the first person to tell you to shut the hell up.

I don't know if you've been awake in any of your history classes, but they had these things called wars back in the day. Believe it or not, but most of those wars were based solely on religion.

Yes, Christians did kill Muslims and Jews before. They killed morons like you saying that everything about everything in the world is corrupt due to religion. But you seem to neglect that every religion killed people to get where they're at. Jews killed Christians and Muslims, but you don't speak out about that. Muslims killed lots of Christians and Jews, but you don't speak out about that.

All I am trying to say is, if you trash one religion for murder, you better trash them all. And just to let you know, not everyone is trendy and anti-God like you are, not everyone can be a teenager forever. People believe in this stuff.