Finally, a religion/anti-religion thread.

[Narbus]

Let's work this, in reverse.
Corey:
Then they aren't Christians, now are they?

If someone comes forth and says, "Hey, I believe that Einstein was totally right, but energy can be created and relativity is totally wrong," would you say he believed in Einstein's physics?
The Bible says that anyone who accepts Christ, and only Christ, as their savior is saved. Ok? That's it. There you go.


Aerin, RE: Contradictions in the Bible.
Did you read those contradictions? They don't matter. "Who was Joseph's father," and "Who was at the tomb," and "What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?" and such. Who cares? The color of a robe does not change Jesus's teachings. They don't contradict the principles of the faith, they're desperate technicalities that in no way changes the central message of Jesus's life.
If Einstein wrote a book that contained all the information about relativity we would ever need to know, but he miswrote, and in that his favorite pipe was the one given to him by his wife, and later said his favorite was the one given to him by his mother, would you disregard the whole book, and say that Einstein was clearly a quack?

The stuff I posted earlier contradicted the principles of Mormonism. Not the technicalities that don't even matter.

Now, for the big one.
First, I didn't try and prove mormonism wrong. Had I tried, things would have been considerably less pleasant. I did prove that they weren't Christians. That all I was aiming for. Yes, they have a handful of roots in Christianity, but that doesn't make them Christians. Hell, Christianity contains flavors of Sumerian and Egyptian religions. I wouldn't call Christianity a Sumerian or Egyptian religion, would I?

Secondly, I doubt I would care if you called someone I liked a witch. Admittedly, since I don't have the religious background that Cass does the term "witch" doesn't hold near as much bite for me, so let's suppose you called them idiots. I would take the "Well, no, here's why you're wrong" path instead of the "LALALALA" path Cass has taken.

I have to go to work now, I'll get into the reasons why I continue to press this after.

[mosaik]

Aerin: if christianity contradicts itself, then one of the two premises from which the contradiction arises is wrong.

[Henrietta]

Christians believe that we are all sinners, and therefore all unworthy of God and Heaven, no matter how great our works, but faith in Jesus as our Savior allows for forgivness of our sins, and thus entrance into Heaven.

As do Mormons. They just think you have to give a bit of an effort, that's all. I guess where we differ is what makes someone Christian. OBVIOUSLY! We have discussed this, and just because you use your definition and we're using another, does not mean that either of us are right. Mormons do not believe we have automatic entrance to heaven even though they have done the works. Not possible. Only through God's grace can that happen, but he's got to have something to judge you on. If you live, he has something to judge you on. This is all semantics. I am not going to admit that Mormons are not Christians because I believe they are. We believe in Christ. End of story. Go ahead, go with your definition, but I'm not going to just say...you know, you're right. I am stupid.

This is not a life altering thing for me. I was born a Mormon. My family has been Mormon since they came out West. They left families in Norway and England to come to America, and eventually Utah and Idaho. I have FAITH. If every person out there who had faith just decided not to have it anymore because someone like you came around, there would be no faith. And without faith, you cannot believe in a God that you cannot see. I think my ancestors must have felt something too, in order to have left their entire lives behind TWICE for their religion. Just for your information, I am not playing ostrich. This is the first time I have visited the CM since I last posted. Just because I don't live and breath the damn board doesn't mean I'm not reading. Have a little patience. I have talked this over with men in my family, who hold the preishood and have served missions, converting people just like YOU. I know what is going on, and if I really felt like going to get quotes from scripture for you, then I could. But honestly, I don't have the time, the energy, or the patience. I don't really even want to change your mind. I have questioned my faith since I have been little. I still hold the idea that we could be wrong, as could everyone else. But I FEEL something from my religion, and that is all that matters to me. So no matter how frustrated you get, and how many times you quote the Bible, and try to call me out (which doesn't really soften my heart or make me want to even read your post, as Aerin so eloquently said), I am not going to change my mind.

Honestly, all I did was bring something up for discussion. I didn't invite you to try to ridicule me. Can't you think of anything else to debate now, or is Mormonism-disproving your main fancy?

[Galaxia]

Gee. What about all those people in other countries who've never even heard of Jesus? Wow. God is such an asshole!

You know those annoying Jehovah Witnesses? They publish literature in over 200 languages. Their work is even being done in countries where it is under ban; meaning they risk their necks for people to hear about Jesus. This isn't a 2 year thing like the Mormons. It's a life long commitment. In fact my dear ol' grandpa was conducting bible studies from his hospital bed.

An interesting website...

http://www.watchtower.org/

[Henrietta]

If you are doing what you are supposed to be doing, then all mormons are missionaries. Which, I obviously am not. And, we don't need to send them out for longer because if you look, we have thousands upon thousands more missionaries than Jehovah's Witnesses. At the beginning of the church, we would send missionaries out for lifetimes.

[Corey]

Let's work this, in reverse.
Corey:
Then they aren't Christians, now are they?

No, they are still Christians because they believe Jesus is the Son of God and the Saviour of man. That is the one and only restriction.

[Narbus]

Again, in reverse.
Corey: No. no. no. no. really, I mean it now, No.
If I believe in Christ as the Savior of man and son of God, but for whatever reason refuse to honor him as such, then I am not Christian. Or, if I believe in Christ as Savior of man and Son of God, but add all this extra stuff on, then I'm not Christian.
If someone comes forth and says, "Hey, I believe that Einstein was totally right, but energy can be created and relativity is totally wrong," would you say he believed in Einstein's physics?


I'm not saying that not being Christian is bad. I'm not Christian, so obviously I'm not trying to convert others to Christianity. Mormons are not Christians. To be a Christian, you have to believe in the Christ of the Bible. They don't, as evidenced by the pages of chapter-and-verse I provided earlier. ~fin

Galaxia:
And how many Native American, Incans, Mayans, etc didn't have even the slightest inkling of Christ until (at the very possible earliest) 1492? That's 492 years after Jesus was born, or 459 years after his death and subsequent ressurection, for people to be born, to live, and to die with it being physically impossible for the word of God and the message of Christ to be even available for them to choose. Explain how that is the work of a kind and compassionate Christ who loves everyone.

And back to Cass.
Ok, again, you already have been judged.
Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Romans 3:10 - There is none righteous, no, not one.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

You are found wanting. You, by virtue of being born are unworthy of entrance to God's kingdom. This is not semantics. This is plain english that you are ignoring. There is nothing else for God to judge you on. You are already guilty, and have been since day one. If you believe in the Bible, then you believe this. If you don't believe this, you don't believe in the Bible, and you're not Christian.

Also, I didn't say you were playing ostrich because you hadn't posted in a while. That I understand. I said you were playing ostrich because when you did post, it was the aforementioned "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" posts. You are sticking your head in the sand rather than actually confront what I'm putting out there before you. You aren't questioning your religion, because if you were, you would be able to answer ANY of the questions that I've put before you. You started out lying to yourself, and now you're lying to me, which, I'm sure you realize, is breaking one of the Commandments. You have now topped your previous best with the new "I feel something," which is one of the greatest cop-outs I've ever read on this board, and is seconded only by "Well, I just lack the patience to respond properly." Also, I GREATLY resent the notion that it's something that I lack that's keeping you from reading what I write. That is all on your end.

I didn't ridicule you. Go back and look at the first post I made in reply to you. It consistes of what you believe, countered ONLY by Biblical quotes, with zero commentary by me. You responded with "I cannot ezplain to EXACTLY how this works." Where's the ridicule?
I seriously want to know where that ridiculed you and so hampered you as to be unable to respond to any of it with anything that even approached an actual answer.

Also, as soon as you actually start answering my questions about your faith, then I will move on. The only reason I press this so far is because you refuse to. This hasn't been a debate. This has been me deluging you with information and you running and hiding behind some random missionary rather than actually look at anything I've posted.

I was born a Mormon.

Yes, I realized that before you even said it, because it's painfully clear that it's the only reason you are a Mormon.

[One-Eye]

Alrighty, Narbus. I realize I don't know enough about Mormon doctrine to properly refute your arguments myself, so I took the liberty of doing a quick Google search. Voila: this page, which deals precisely with the question of whether or not Mormons are Christians. It mentions all of your points (yes, all of them), and refutes them. Simple, easy to read, and yes, logical.

If you're going to continue to argue that Mormons aren't Christians, I would at least hope that you read through this page and some of the links - it explains pretty well the Mormon stance on the issue.

[Corey]

If I believe in Christ as the Savior of man and son of God, but for whatever reason refuse to honor him as such, then I am not Christian. .

Well if you did honor him as such then you would be. Not quite sure how that makes such a big difference, but whatever. My point is that you can have different ideas of heaven and hell and still be Christian.

[finding emo]

The thing that I hate about organized religions is...well for one thing, they all say something different, so how are we supposed to know what we believe? The majority of people never really explore their options. How do they know what they want to believe if it wouldnt be for their parents pushing something on to them? Another thing is, it causes a lot of arguments in people. I also have a thing against born again Christians. Murderers say that they found God and supposedly they go to Heaven... maybe I don't want to be in a Heaven like that.

By the way, I'm... Jewish. I was born a Jew, had my bat mitzvah... but don't go to synagogue anymore. I keep my own spirituality and my own beliefs. I don't want anyone else telling me how to interpret God's word. That doesn't make sense to me.

But I have weird views, I guess.

[Narbus]

First: Corey.
I'm gonna say this one last time. You are wrong. YOU. ARE. WRONG. The Bible is the basis of Christianity. If you aren't a Christian in the Biblical meaning, you are not a Christian. That's all there is to it.
It's the half assed, "Well, yeah, don't kill and all that, but they don't mean the infidels, right? I know, I know, 'thou shalt not kill," but I think otherwise" bullshit that leads to a lot of the trouble that is pinned on religion, and is actually people ignoring their religion.
One more time, and pay attention here, the Bible is the basis of Christianity. If you aren't a Christian in the Biblical meaning, you are not a Christian. That's all there is to it.

Now, to Aerin.

There, see? It's very very easy to research this stuff, and come up with some points and discussion topics in about 30 seconds. Take note, everyone. No more of this "well, yeah, you raise valid points, but YOU'RE JUST WRONG" crap. We all know where to find google, let's take a lesson from Ms. Aerin and use it.

Now for the discussion.

1. "Mormons don't use the cross as a symbol of worship because they do not accept Christ's Atonement."
I actually accept this one. I know a few fundamentalist Christians who don't have any crosses or such, since they consider it not to be praying to Jesus, but to be praying to an image. This I don't fault anyone for, as it's a perfectly acceptable bit of reasoning.

2. "Latter-day Saints believe that salvation comes through their own works rather than through the grace of Christ."
Two problems.
First, Nephi is from the Book of Mormon, not the Bible. So it does nothing to justify the notion that your works matter, Biblically. I still see no Biblical evidence that works matter at all, and quite a bit evidence that they don't.

Second, for completeness sake, here's the verse they use.

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. (2 Nephi 25:23)

They claim that the line "after all we can do" is justification for what they believe. I disagree. To me, and keeping in mind what the Bible does say, this seems to me to mean more, "even after all we can do, and after all the good works we can accomplish, it is by Grace that we are saved, not those works."

3. "Latter-day Saints believe Joseph Smith was greater than Christ."
I never once claimed this, nor do I argue it here.

4. "Latter-day Saints can't be considered Christian because they accept more than the Bible as the Word of God."

This is a problem. After all,
Revelations 22 : 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Changing the Bible, including adding to what has been written in the way that the Book of Mormon does is a sin. Since the Mormons not only add to the Bible, but claim it as God's truth, it could even be considered blasphemous.

I would also like to point out that this page does not answer the problem with the Mormon belief of God once being human, or of the belief that mortals can become as God, or with the belief that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit exist are three aspects of the same God.

[Corey]

Narbus,

Are Methodists not Christians?
Protestants?
Presbyterians?
Catholics?
Baptists?

Christianity is merely a category, not a specific religion.

Apples are not oranges, but they are both fruit.
Likewise, Methodists are not Catholics but they are both Christians.

[Narbus]

Dear Corey,

[Corey]

Narbus,

<img src="http://punkrockpenguin.net/waste/smoochies/smoochies02.jpg">

[Henrietta]

Changing the Bible, including adding to what has been written in the way that the Book of Mormon does is a sin.

Says you?

You both have differing opinions, what the hell makes your better?



You truly are being a condescending asshole when you post a pic like that, and when you say. YOU. ARE. WRONG. Pride is also a sin, you seem to think you know everything about my religion. You obviously don't.

By the way, that site you found Aerin is very good, I agree with it completely.

Narbus-If you believe that a travel guide or the dictionary is true, then I guess that makes you not Christian. It seems to me, by your definition, only blind, ignorant people are Christian.

And back to Cass.
Ok, again, you already have been judged.
Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Romans 3:10 - There is none righteous, no, not one.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 - For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

I agree with this. Where does it say I have already been judged? Does the bible not preach repentence?

[Narbus]

Says you?

NO, CASS, SAYS THE FREAKING BIBLE.

You both have differing opinions, what the hell makes your better?

The fact that I'm right.

You truly are being a condescending asshole when you post a pic like that, and when you say. YOU. ARE. WRONG. Pride is also a sin, you seem to think you know everything about my religion. You obviously don't.

And if I were a mormon, I would care that pride were a sin. And if someone refuses to actually read what I post, even after I post the damn thing more times than I care to count, then I'm going to get vexed.
Since I have posted the same damn three lines so much, it stands to reason that Corey is illiterate. I thought the picture might help him out a bit.

By the way, that site you found Aerin is very good, I agree with it completely.

Great. Good job. But what about my rebuttals to those points? And what about my rebuttals to your earlier posts about your beliefs? Do you actually have any ground on which to stand here? If you do, share. If not, then admit it.

Narbus-If you believe that a travel guide or the dictionary is true, then I guess that makes you not Christian. It seems to me, by your definition, only blind, ignorant people are Christian.

Well, since you are acting blind, and ignorant, and claim to be Christian...
PS: The dictionary thing false analogy. I'm not even going to bother to correct it, fix it yourself.

I agree with this. Where does it say I have already been judged? Does the bible not preach repentence?

Ok, we are speaking of getting into Heaven. We have already been judged and found unworthy of Heaven.
Isaiah 59
1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

By the verses I posted earlier, our works cannot save us from this verdict. Only faith in Christ as our Savior can.

Just to wrap all this up:

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And some more:
Thess 1:7-9
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The only Gospel of Christ is the Bible. How do we know this? We know this from Revelations:

Revelations 22 : 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[Henrietta]

And if someone refuses to actually read what I post, even after I post the damn thing more times than I care to count, then I'm going to get vexed.

I read it, I just didn't care to comment.

[One-Eye]

This is a problem. After all,
Revelations 22 : 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Changing the Bible, including adding to what has been written in the way that the Book of Mormon does is a sin. Since the Mormons not only add to the Bible, but claim it as God's truth, it could even be considered blasphemous.

The problem here is your assumption that Revelation is referring to the entire Bible. Not true. "This book" is referring to the Book of Revelation only; when it was written, there <i>was</i> no Bible, obviously.

[Narbus]

The problem here is your assumption that Revelation is referring to the entire Bible. Not true. "This book" is referring to the Book of Revelation only; when it was written, there <i>was</i> no Bible, obviously.

Well done, sharp eye.

However,

Deu 4:1,2 Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgements which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers is giving you.You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.


Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

I read it, I just didn't care to comment.

I was referring to Corey in the statement you quoted from me.

[areusad831]

hey can we please try and keep discussions friendly. Lets not try and prove one persons religion is right. If you dont believe in dont try to prove someone else wrong. It is their beliefes and there is no reason to judge them on it. if it keeps up and people keep being offended and upset over it im going to have to lock it. lets keep it friendly. thanks