A question for the religious and non-religious alike.

SpiritualJunkie · Post by **SpiritualJunkie** » 6/5/2004, 8:02 pm

I think the point of heaven is rewards for people who live their life in a fairly good way. It's harder to be good than to be bad. Maybe God just wants to reward those who take their time to do something that isn't easy.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/5/2004, 8:02 pm

And that's where the ontological argument fails horribly. It isn't logical to claim that it's just good enough to not need explaination. The point is if there is a meaning to existence, which has been defined by Christians basically as the persuit of heaven, then there has to be a reason for heaven.

Think about our existence in this life as a sphere.

Heaven and God are a sphere surrounding that sphere.

What's outside that sphere? Nothing? If there's nothing outside that sphere, what makes it logical to think there has to be something outside of the first sphere?

And, if heaven is infinite (meaning the second sphere is infinite), then what caused heaven? If God created something infinite, He would have to be greater than infinite, which is impossible. So, heaven must be finite, right? But then what's outside of the heaven sphere? God? But what created God? And why was God created? If God created himself, why did He do it? Why did he create a bunch of relatively stupid beings to follow him and go to heaven, which He also created?

SpiritualJunkie · Post by **SpiritualJunkie** » 6/5/2004, 8:06 pm

Well, in most religions...it is God that creates a heavenly existence. So God has to be bigger than heaven if he's the one who made it in the first place. Maybe what is outside of heaven is hell 'cause hell definitely isn't inside of heaven.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/5/2004, 8:10 pm

God is infinite though. In theory its impossible yes, but God doesnt live in a world of rules like we do. Nor does he live on a timeline like we do. Heaven is in essence a reward but many people who study the Bible do not believe it resides in a physical realm or on the same plane as our universe does. Heaven isnt some place tucked into the back corner of the Universe. Its on another plane all together and on that plane there are probably a complete different set of rules that God has set out. If you believe God created the Universe than you must believe that God created the rules in which that universe runs by.

joe_canadian · Post by **joe_canadian** » 6/5/2004, 8:14 pm

Axtech wrote:And that's where the ontological argument fails horribly. It isn't logical to claim that it's just good enough to not need explaination. The point is if there is a meaning to existence, which has been defined by Christians basically as the persuit of heaven, then there has to be a reason for heaven.

Christians didn't define anything. The bible did, and they follow it.

All I can say to the rest of your post is to read Aquinas and Descartes if you want serious thoughts on what you're saying.

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » 6/5/2004, 8:27 pm

I remember thinking about this right after I moved to this house I live in, 11 years ago, so I was 9. I started balling and telling my mom that it's just a circle and there's no point to it, cause I don't want to "live" forever in eternity! She said that in Heaven (we believe there are 7 levels of heaven), everything is fulfilled. You are perfect, you aren't left in want of anything. Heaven is actually the Earth, in it's perfect form. You won't want to know "why" there is heaven, you will be content. That's just our nature now, to want to know the why of every damn thing there is. Also, we believe that God once was as we are. Therefore, and some people find this very offensive, God once had a human life. Through righteous living and whatever comes after, he became God. And we will be able to become like God.

As to why there is a heaven, I think of like this. Every school year, you just want the end to come, and hopefully after (the heavenly summer), everything will be fine. Life is like school and summer is like Heaven. We need to have that sense of ease, fulfillment, and relief.

hpdfk · Post by **hpdfk** » 6/5/2004, 8:31 pm

Are you mormon?

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » 6/5/2004, 8:34 pm

Random Name · Post by **Random Name** » 6/5/2004, 8:41 pm

I think the reason God and Heaven and even Hell exist is because people want them to.

I'm not trying to be synical and say "people only believe in this crap cause there is nothing else to believe in." Quite the opposite.

Its actually a Buddihst thing.
They have a riddle that says something like "Imagine there is a Jar. Inside the Jar there is a bird. Without breaking the jar, how can you get the bird out?" And the western way of thinking makes up ideas like greasing the jar so the bird can slip through and stuff like that. But the answer to the riddle is "If you imagined the bird inside the jar, then you can imagine the bird outside the jar."

So if no one believed in God, would there still be one? Or if everyone believed our purpose was to go to heaven, would we still go to heaven?

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/5/2004, 8:51 pm

The point isn't that we will or won't ask why there is a heaven.

I'm asking now.

Why is there a heaven? Why is there a God?

Without explaining this, there is absolutely no basis for that belief.

And, just to point out that I'm not attacking your religion - why was there this super-condensed unimaginably small point of matter, and why did it explode? What came before it?

I know heaven isn't supposed to be a physical place. That's not my point. My point is to ask the question of why it exists - on any level. And why does God exist - on any level.

So far, the train of thought seems to go as follows...

God ----> creates heaven ----> for the good to spend eternity in
\/......................................................................................./\
creates us............................................................................|
\/........................................................................................|
so we can either spend eternity in heaven or hell.....................|
................................................... \/....................................|
...............................................both of which He created ------|

As you can see, the thinking is very circular. The question then becomes: Why would God create us, if only to test us to judge whether or not we should spend enternity in another of His creations.

This theory would make sense if one of two things were true...

a) God didn't create us, but did create heaven for us to aspire to, so that we would be good in this, our original life.

or

b) God didn't creat heaven, but created us as a new set of beings to bring into an already existing realm.

(both of these possibilities then raise innumerable other questions, though)

It just doesn't make any sense that an infinite being would create something in order to test that creation to put in another creation. Why would He do that? What purpose could it possibly serve?

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/5/2004, 9:50 pm

From a Christian Perspective:

He didnt create heaven to test humans. According to the Bible humans were first and formost created 'perfect' and perfeclty in tune with God. God created a sinless world. Now anyone who looks into how Satan came into being knows that Satan was Gods most beautiful angel. However Satan aspired to be even greater and more beautiful than God and thus was caste down from Heaven. Thus Satan entered onto the earth and tempted Eve and as a result the first sin occured and man became imperfect and was seperated from God. God is perfect and humans became imperfect and God cannot be around sin. Thus Gods solution was to come down from heaven in the form of a man as the ultimate sacrifice and pin the sins of mankind on the cross. Anyone who believes that Jesus payed the price for their sins goes to heaven and is reunited with God. Anyone who does not goes to hell. God didnt create Heaven as a reward for people who have lived a good life. Gods originally intended for humanity to remain united with him. However as I said before the earth became imperfect. So I guess the answer to your question is:

Heaven is the location where humanity is reunited with God.

joe_canadian · Post by **joe_canadian** » 6/5/2004, 10:08 pm

Heh, Rob, aren't you a committed agnostic? I thought you were of the mind to think we can't know these things. If so, you're treading dangerously close to some real assertation here. :lol:

SpiritualJunkie · Post by **SpiritualJunkie** » 6/5/2004, 10:46 pm

Joe Cool wrote:Heaven is the location where humanity is reunited with God.

I never thought of it that way. That would make so much sense!

I don't think God created people in order to test them. How about the simple answer: He created people because he wanted something to love.

Bandalero · Post by **Bandalero** » 6/5/2004, 10:55 pm

I AM ME wrote:hmmm i don't really know my physic's but god is an effect of something. there for does he not need a cause?

maybe he's the effect of a man made thing.

wait...what!? :freak:

Post by **xjsb125** » 6/6/2004, 5:25 am

From the religious standpoint, God and Heaven are far above human comprehension. People could think themselves into insanity, or think for years on what Robbo is talking about. The thought of who or what came before God, what happens when we get to Heaven, etc. will only run you in circles and frustrate you. Not to mention there are so many differences in what eternity is to different religions. Cassie being mormon, believes in 7 levels of Heaven. Me being a christian, I just believe that there is 1. Then if you get into the other religions there are so many different opinions of who or what a supreme creator is and what the after life brings you. But I don't sit and think myself in circles on those subjects, I just accept what I have read in the Bible. It's faith, believing without seeing or having tangible proof. I don't feel compelled to find something tangible to justify it, nor do I feel like I have to prove what I believe to anyone. I just accept it and go on. But very good question Rob, it definitely provokes the mind.

AnnieDreams · Post by **AnnieDreams** » 6/6/2004, 7:16 am

A question that comes up a lot is what was before God. But if you believe that God created the universe, wouldn't he have also created time? So how could there be a before?

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/6/2004, 10:25 am

Joe Cool wrote:From a Christian Perspective:

He didnt create heaven to test humans. According to the Bible humans were first and formost created 'perfect' and perfeclty in tune with God. God created a sinless world. Now anyone who looks into how Satan came into being knows that Satan was Gods most beautiful angel. However Satan aspired to be even greater and more beautiful than God and thus was caste down from Heaven. Thus Satan entered onto the earth and tempted Eve and as a result the first sin occured and man became imperfect and was seperated from God. God is perfect and humans became imperfect and God cannot be around sin. Thus Gods solution was to come down from heaven in the form of a man as the ultimate sacrifice and pin the sins of mankind on the cross. Anyone who believes that Jesus payed the price for their sins goes to heaven and is reunited with God. Anyone who does not goes to hell. God didnt create Heaven as a reward for people who have lived a good life. Gods originally intended for humanity to remain united with him. However as I said before the earth became imperfect. So I guess the answer to your question is:

Heaven is the location where humanity is reunited with God.

Then the question still remains of why he created humans at all.

And the question still comes up of God's creation.

I'm not necessarily looking for answers, just pondering the unponderable. :mrgreen:

I also believe that there is absolutely no way humans can comprehend any of this. Just fun contemplating it.

I'm not really bordering on assertation here, just arguing one side because no one's tried to defend the other yet. I guess that's because it's hard to defend something as hopelessly depressing as meaninglessness in life.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/6/2004, 10:26 am

xjsb125 wrote:But very good question Rob, it definitely provokes the mind.

That's what the goal of this thread is. :mrgreen:

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/6/2004, 1:13 pm

Another question just came to me... Since God created heaven, he created the angels, correct? However, Satan is a fallen angel. All negative or imperfect things link back to Satan, who was originally an angel. But Satan, obviously imperfect in his greed and lust for power, was created by God. How could God, while trying to create perfection, fail with this angel, if He is perfect?

joe_canadian · Post by **joe_canadian** » 6/6/2004, 1:32 pm

Free will.