You can dish it out but you can't take it.

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 10/9/2004, 7:58 am

I have to painfully syphon through the pages and pages that continually attack the US, its military, and its administration day after day and grin and bear it. But if I decide to defend any of those things or even bring up questions about Canada (God forbid) it gets locked.

Typical.

nelison · Post by **nelison** » 10/9/2004, 11:21 am

That thread shouldn't have been locked, or it should have waited until some rational people came to Corey's defense, because most of the arguments against him were pathetic at best.

This may be somewhat of a plea, but come on people, not only be respective of other people and their arguments, but read up on issues if you're going to have a say in things. It's one thing to say "Canada is way different than the USA" but to just say that, and not back it up with reasoning (i.e. our socialist nature rather than the pathetic example that we pronounce things differently) is what makes threads go bad.

Trust me, I was guilty of this as well when the CM political discussions started a couple years ago. I blindly went into conversations being extremely anti-American and having maybe a tenth of the knowledge about international and domestic politics as I do now. Hopefully you guys will start reading other sources (not just Matt Good's blog, even though it is educational, but there is a reason why he has a list of dozens of alternative websites listed at the side of the page) and try to construct rational arguments rather than ones motivated by emotion and arrogance.

Hopefully Nikki or any other mod will unlock the thread because it certainly wasn't warranted.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 10/9/2004, 12:12 pm

J-Neli wrote:Trust me, I was guilty of this as well when the CM political discussions started a couple years ago. I blindly went into conversations being extremely anti-American and having maybe a tenth of the knowledge about international and domestic politics as I do now. Hopefully you guys will start reading other sources (not just Matt Good's blog, even though it is educational, but there is a reason why he has a list of dozens of alternative websites listed at the side of the page) and try to construct rational arguments rather than ones motivated by emotion and arrogance.

Agreed. I remember a while back when I first entered the politics section of the CM. Of course being the young and stupid, I spouted a ton of crap based on emotion rather than facts. Who knows maybe my arguments were valid or even true but I had nothing to back them up and nothing to show for what I was saying. Those with more knowledge then I were able to quickly shoot down my arguments and I was left feeling rather stupid and angry. Now I dont even participate in discussions where I have an opinion but nothing to back that opinion up. I'm not the best debater on the CM but at least now I can defend myself in a constructive way. I realize i'm on a tangent but if anything, dont go spouting your opinions everwhere without the resources to defend yourself. It only leads to a huge amount of frustration.

nelison · Post by **nelison** » 10/9/2004, 1:21 pm

I agree greatly. I used to get my arguments torn apart by Corey, Chris and Doug. Eventually you realize that it makes you a better debater, and a better person because you really get to know your stuff. There's nothing wrong with being wrong, just so long as you can be rational and see another person's argument.

I remember the days where I would literally spend an hour on one post just to cover up any holes and flaws in my argument. I think its great.

I encourage everyone to participate in the political discussions and not take everything to heart. The more people involved, the more perspectives you get and the better off we all are. And don't be afraid to voice your opinion but don't be surprised or take it to heart when someone counters it flawlessly.

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 10/9/2004, 7:39 pm

It's rather sad how the one question that was asked by Corey was completely avoided throughout the entire thread. If someone even implies that America earned what happened on 9/11, then simply asking for a reason why is more than acceptable. I want to know why that statement was made.

The thread never should have been locked. Some resolution would be greatly appreciated here. You're giving a stupid comment a free pass because Corey was being rational and calm. Let's look at facts, if the messageboard's owner didn't lock the thread after the statement was made, then why should Nikki have locked it? Face it, everything that Corey said (in a level-headed manner, mind you), had some truth behind it. The only thing that could be even slightly offensive was the link to the Canadian stereotypes, written by a fellow Canadian.

What Sine (I think) said is like the equivalent of saying people deserved to have their loved ones taken away from them. Completely irrational, incorrect, and just rude. Then to have the audacity to avoid defending your statement is just sad. If I ever made a statement so crude, I would be expected to answer myself and give my reasoning behind it. So why is this situation different from any other situation where, Chris, Doug, Corey, Jim, or myself said anything that upset people?

So I will propose Corey's question again, and hopefully there will be a resolution to the comment.

What event, or events, brought on 9/11 that made America deserving of the attack?

Please do not lock this thread. Please take your time in answering the question. Please do some research before you answer the question. I just want to know the rationale behind the comment.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » 10/9/2004, 8:01 pm

If I may say something. I know I'm not very well liked on this board and I don't have any say in what goes on in it, but nikki was made a mod because the creator of the site obviously felt that she was smart enough and trustworthy enough to make the right decisions concerning what she can do with her mod abilities. She saw a problem arising and arguments starting so she stopped it before it got out of hand. Making a new thread to ask the same question is rather rude, it will eventually turn into the same thing that got the last thread locked. If you want an answer to your question it would be best to do it through PM's so the person that made that comment can alone comment on it, and no public arguments shall take place.

Post by **xjsb125** » 10/9/2004, 8:19 pm

Here are my thoughts. I agree with Nikki's decision to lock the thread. I back her up completely. The thread veered off the original question completely and pitted the US CMers against the Canadians. I will take my share of the blame for that, and perhaps I should have locked the thread earlier. There are two huge dividing lines on the CM, and they are very obvious in this part of the forum, and that is politics and religion. Jim, Corey, Doug, and Chris have done a good job setting the example of how the conversations should be carried out. Provide your argument, then back it up. It's something that I'm still learning to do, and I'm thankful to have such good examples. So I'm asking that we all drop this US vs Canada, and World vs US theme that we have picked up in the last week. If threads continue into this cloud of angst towards each other, then we'll continue to lock them. Nikki is an administrator on this board because I know that she will take responsibility for what goes on here, even more so than I will, and I trust her to do the right things. If you guys feel the need to carry on this debate, please state your case and back it up with facts and debate in a respectful manner, otherwise we'll delete posts or lock threads. Sinead I apologize for calling your comment dumb. I feel like it could have been thought through a little better. So yeah, that's all I got to say about that. I think.

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 10/9/2004, 9:07 pm

The only thing that bothers me about what you just said, Matt, is that you have complete faith in Nikki as a mod. There are threads where people patronize me (read: concerts) and made just to spite me (read: Josh's random music recommendations thread!). And when I try to start a thread, all the posts from people are just backhanded comments towards me (read: Alan's Weekly-ish Music Recommendations Thread!).

In all of those cases, nothing has happened. All the mods, that are supposedly here to keep the peace, either let the fact that people are insulting me, unprovoked, or are the ones that insult me because they're jealous of me. So where is your concern there? Why is it understandable for someone like you to insult me and I can't do anything about it, but when someone that you see as unsavory says anything, they have to worry about being banned, having their threads locked, and continued to be attacked?

Another thing that bothers me is Josh's thread made to insult me. By all means, it should be locked, seeing that the only reason it was made was to patronize me and the fact that I like to talk about music. Instead of being a responsible mod, like you say she is, Nikki posts in there saying it's the greatest thing ever. Responsible, eh? And yet, if I were to say anything to her, I would have my comment deleted, have to worry about being banned, and have 13 more threads about how terrible I am in your secret mod forum.

So if you're going to preach about how you trust the decisions to lock certain threads, at least remain somewhat true to your word. Don't use these examples of why you feel just in deleting certain posts or threads, but ignore the same words you just used when it comes to a thread about someone you don't like. It's childish.

Anyways, I just want an answer from whomever.

Korzic · Post by **Korzic** » 10/9/2004, 10:15 pm

I theres one thing I've learned about people in 22 years of existence.

Discussions involving politics, sexuality or religion will become polarised debates full of angst. It happens EVERYWHERE, ANYWHERE and to EVERYONE.

No matter where it's held all forms of those discussions will result in 1 side getting hot under the collar and responding and then the other side doing the same etc etc etc.

IMHO the thread should have been left open. Don't close threads unless they're pointless. Let people duke it out and argue their points rather than capping them. That's what the whole free speech thing was designed for. (having said that I realise that this is a forum not a country) I jsut think that conversations like that should be allowed. I didn''t feel it was getting particularly out of hand and its nice to see rational arguments to counter the LOL AMERICA IS THE DEVIL LOL mentality that some people have.

closeyoureyes · Post by **closeyoureyes** » 10/9/2004, 10:45 pm

Its okay for calling it dumb

, you're allowed to have your own opinion.

Can I just make one thing crystal clear? I'm not Anti-American, and I never plan on becoming ignorant like that.

Alan: I absolutely dont think that. The only reason i even brought up the tension America has caused was because Corey said the reason 9.11 happened was because America was the strongest nation in the world[And although that is true, there were more reasons that just that]. But do I think 9.11 was deserved, or should have been expected? Absolutely Not.

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » 10/10/2004, 1:47 am

I'm glad you cleared that up, because you most certainly made it sound that way in the other thread. I hope you really believe that, but it seems to me that you deep down in your heart really feel that us Americans are power hungry, blood thirsty, raping bastards who deserve to be blown to bits.

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 10/10/2004, 2:00 am

Wow i totally missed all of this.

In a probably unrelated topic, i thin ki should just remind everyone that when us Canadian's make comments about America it shouldn't be taken as personal attacks. We are attacking Bush and his adminstration, not American's. To be honest American culture is nearly the same as Canadian, and we grow up watching the same tv as you do. Not many of us hate American's, we hate your government.

But a warning to the wary, making comments about American superiority is a sore point with EVERYONE in the world. The way some American's act reflects very very badly upon your country. So even if you are totaly right, keep in mind that much of the world views American's as arrogant, ignorant, and naive. So if comments you make hint towards these stereotypes, people are quick to jump on you. I think everyone has at one point or another dealt with a person from America who acted rather obnoxious. So try to not come off that way if you want to save some grief.

In America's defense though i realize that everyone is diffrent and stereotypes hurt everyone. And i'm not blind to the fact that many grown Canadian's are under the impression that we are morally superior to American's. Whether we are or not is debatable.

nikki4982 · Post by **nikki4982** » 10/10/2004, 2:01 am

Hah. Where to start.

I guess with the first post in here. If you didn't notice by my location on the left there, I'm an American, and I was the one to lock the other thread... not a Canadian. I didn't appreciate the anti-Americanism OR the anti-Canadianism in there.

I saw where the thread was going, and it wasn't toward any sort of rationally thought out discussion. It was going to get ugly. Sinead is a VERY passionate person, and she would not have stopped posting replies that people took the wrong way, and in the process continue getting bashed because she may not have completley thought things through before posting them. I personally don't think that's healthy for the board or for her. So I put an end to it.

There was also the fact that the US/Canadian separation that already exists on this board was just getting made larger. That's just not what we need.

And, Alan, I commented on Josh's thread being hilarious not because I'm "jealous" of you, but because I thought his post was funny, and I didn't even see it as an insult to you, but more of a "spoof" or what have you. You've gotta stop taking things so unbelievably seriously and sit back and laugh a little.

Also, I lock threads that I believe are a threat to the community. I've always done that. Because someone makes an off-hand comment to you randomly isn't warrent for me (or any other mod) to lock an entire thread. If after a comment, the whole place then explodes and people start arguing left and right, then there's need. But if it's just a random comment? We'd have to lock a heck of a lot of threads. We all get comments against us. Deal with it.

I think I covered just about everything I thought needed commenting on. Feel free to keep criticising my decision, but I still believe I did the right thing and you're not gonna change my mind. That thread was going to get uglier than it already was. Period.

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 10/10/2004, 2:06 am

i would like to add, for people that are from Europe and have never had the pleasure of a trip to America it's like going to France or Germany. The country is nice, and full if great people. But there's also a healthy amount of superiority complex, and arrogance among some painfully misinformed citizens bringing the place down for everyone.

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 10/10/2004, 8:05 am

*sigh* I wasn't going to comment further but alas, I am weak.

I would like someone to please point out how I was being "Anti-Canadian". Because I suggested that Canadian and American culture were nearly identical? [insert evil villian music here] I have plenty of respect for Canada. I thnk it is no surprise that I support this movement:

http://www.unitednorthamerica.org

In fact, in the other thread, "Who Won", Canadians are stating that they have a lof of stake in this election. Well, a United North America would allow for Canada to help make that decision. Separated, you're just on the outside looking in. Europe is unifying, so why not the US and Canada? My opinion? Because Canada is clinging on to an identity that they seem to think is unique to them. I've been to Canada several times and I don't feel out of place. The only time Canada felt vaguely unique was when I was in Montreal, but you can't say an entire country has a totally different culture based on one province. That would be like saying the US is completely different from others because of Hawaii. This might hurt your feelings, but our cultures are very much alike. Our governments may be different but that doesn't define how we act on a daily basis. Finally, in this thread, a Canadian came forward and described how we are very much alike. At least someone is being honest.

I also don't like the "we don't hate Americans, we hate your government" excuse. To me, that's the same thing. We are proud of our government and some of its accomplishments over the last few decades. At least I am. Maybe not all of its actions were warranted but you shouldn't just focus on those things. Maybe you don't like the current administration. Neither do I, but some of the threads made deeply insult me. You have no idea actually. They never get locked. EVER.

nelison · Post by **nelison** » 10/10/2004, 11:15 am

I don't think I read any anti-canadian sentiments in the last thread. It was very much one or two people promoting anti-american views. I agree with everything Corey said, and I agree that we tackle his government a lot more than any other, but I think it's alright to question and debate governments of any country, and I would definitely encourage people to question not just the American government, but any country in the world including Canada's. We just need to remember to argue with our heads rather than our hearts which is what Sine and Rusty were guilty of in the last thread.

Also the mods need to realize that threads in the politics section rarely if never foam over into other parts of the forum. What's said in this section stays in this section.

Maybe as a mod rather than locking threads immediately, give warnings or something along those lines. It's better in the long run.

I AM ME · Post by **I AM ME** » 10/10/2004, 3:08 pm

Corey wrote:*sigh* I wasn't going to comment further but alas, I am weak.

I would like someone to please point out how I was being "Anti-Canadian". Because I suggested that Canadian and American culture were nearly identical? [insert evil villian music here] I have plenty of respect for Canada. I thnk it is no surprise that I support this movement:

http://www.unitednorthamerica.org

In fact, in the other thread, "Who Won", Canadians are stating that they have a lof of stake in this election. Well, a United North America would allow for Canada to help make that decision. Separated, you're just on the outside looking in. Europe is unifying, so why not the US and Canada? My opinion? Because Canada is clinging on to an identity that they seem to think is unique to them. I've been to Canada several times and I don't feel out of place. The only time Canada felt vaguely unique was when I was in Montreal, but you can't say an entire country has a totally different culture based on one province. That would be like saying the US is completely different from others because of Hawaii. This might hurt your feelings, but our cultures are very much alike. Our governments may be different but that doesn't define how we act on a daily basis. Finally, in this thread, a Canadian came forward and described how we are very much alike. At least someone is being honest.

I also don't like the "we don't hate Americans, we hate your government" excuse. To me, that's the same thing. We are proud of our government and some of its accomplishments over the last few decades. At least I am. Maybe not all of its actions were warranted but you shouldn't just focus on those things. Maybe you don't like the current administration. Neither do I, but some of the threads made deeply insult me. You have no idea actually. They never get locked. EVER.

i think if Canada were unifyed though it would cause a problem much the same as the Western Aliention problem we already face. A large part of the country is already completely ignored by the otherside, and there's really nothing we can do about it. If Canada and America came together, Canada would still have almost no say in it's own politics, because it would be so severely outnumbered by a more conservitive America

Random Name · Post by **Random Name** » 10/10/2004, 3:40 pm

I really don't want to get political here, but I've gotta say this.

Culturally, Canada and the US are very similar. But if an American went to anywhere in Atlantic Canada or Quebec like Corey said, or maybe even the territories then they would not say its like Canada.

When I went to the states this year on vacation, I was amazed at the impersonability of the general public. It was very much a different place. And I know that I'm talking about extreams and I'm in no way talking about the majority of America, but there is a difference between the US and Canada.

From what I got in the last thread, no one was Canada/America bashing. Recognizing differences is fine. No one wants to be told you are better or worse then another, but it is okay to say that two close countries are different.

And that Stupid United North America website seems like a load of crap to me. While that continuously say that it's not Canada just joining the US, they simply have additional stars on the American flag to symbolize the province's, they ignore all the territories and say that PEI is not allowed to be it's own state. Its like ripping away Canada's entire identity just to lower costs.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » 10/10/2004, 4:33 pm

I don't agree with that United North America site either. Canada and America are both North Americans. Their are some differences between our countries some small and some large. The introduction to that site, of all of those flags becoming stars in the U.S. flag was kind of stupid. If our two countries were to form one country, an entirley new flag would have to be made. I don't want to be part of American though, I'm proud to say I'm Canadian, just like Americans are proud to say they're American. Canada and America are neighbours, much like a townhouse which is connected to it's neighbour by a wall. Although they are very close together, thee families living in each dwelling may even have very similar traits, but that doesn't mean they should knock down the wall and form one large family. It just wouldn't work because the little details would eventually rip it apart. Same as our countries, although similar in some aspects we differ in others, and a combining of the two simply wouldn't work, as allies though we work well. Also the American government is only talked about so much, because America is the superpower of the world. Bush and the rest of the government is also in the papers and on the news all the time. It's constantly in our faces, so of course it will be the main thing talked about in political debates.

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » 10/10/2004, 6:26 pm

It wouldn't rip us apart if worse came to worse. Canada and America are melting pots of a thousand different cultures and we do all right. If Canada and America had to be one, we'd also survive.