Who are you voting for? (Canada)

hpdfk · Post by **hpdfk** » 6/5/2004, 6:24 pm

What about victims of incest or rape? Or people who can't afford to bring up severly disabled children?

The development of a fetus plays a huge role in this but there are other factors as well. When my mother was pregnant with a third child, we learned that it would be severly disabled if it was able to live past pregnancy and infancy. Aside from the fact that the child would be a huge money problem to raise if it lived, it was also a danger to my mothers health.

This was when I was in second grade. I was upset at the time, I was looking forward to a baby sibling. Are there concerns with ending a potential life? yes. But sometimes the life that is already in full bloom should have priority over the potential one.

I haven't even touched the issue of stem cells. Those put a completely different spin on the issue.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/5/2004, 6:56 pm

What about parets who arent able to raise their child? How many times do I have to mention the world adoption before people recognize that it is an option? Not being able to raise a child doesnt justify killing a child.

The fact is that if abortion is an option than many children will not be given the chance for life. Most abortions do not take place because of fetal development problems. Many occur because careless teenagers get pregnant and get rid of the child to

A: Avoid Conflict With Their Family
B: Boyfriend doesnt want to a child and the mother wants to keep the BF.
C: They cant afford to raise a child.

I know someone who's Aborted THREE babies simply because the child would be black and her father wouldnt approve of a black child. She didnt even consider adoption.

Now do ANY of those reasons justify killing?

hpdfk · Post by **hpdfk** » 6/5/2004, 6:59 pm

My mom could have died if the child wasn't aborted. It's not just an economic standpoint, It's also health risks.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/5/2004, 7:05 pm

hpdfk wrote:My mom could have died if the child wasn't aborted. It's not just an economic standpoint, It's also health risks.

I'm very sorry to hear that Danny.. but I dont think abortion should be legal.. simply because most of the abortions carried out are not for life threatening reasons.

Edit: According to The Alan Guttmacher Institute:

25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
7.9% of women want no (more) children.
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.

SpiritualJunkie · Post by **SpiritualJunkie** » 6/5/2004, 7:41 pm

According to statistics, Canada's population is decreasing due to abortion. If they keep this up and try to keep immigrants out as well, the future generation is gonna have to take care of a bigger older generation.

hpdfk · Post by **hpdfk** » 6/5/2004, 7:51 pm

Somehow I can't see Canada's population withering away because of abortion

.

and what about the 6.1% like my mom? Aren't they people too? I can understand aspects of abortion that are not right. I'm not comfortable with People who have them at certain stages or without a tangible reason. But to simply block out ALL abortions without considering the consequences is not acceptable. In certain cases a fetus will bring harm to the mother. In others the child will be brought up in a miserable life because they have never seen their biological parents or live in poverty because of their birth. And what about people who are raped where the child is a reminder of a horrible act of violence? or incest?
I currently have a friend who is pregnant. She's 14. She's not getting an abortion, but if she wanted to and was denied the opportunity, could she have the money to raise the child? Would she be mature enough to love it?

SpiritualJunkie · Post by **SpiritualJunkie** » 6/5/2004, 7:55 pm

Personally, I'm not a supporter of abortion. While there are extreme cases where a mother's life is in jeopardy or the child is a result of something traumatic such as rape or incest, there are also many unnecessary abortions where people feel they can easily throw away having a baby for their own selfish reasons.

People who are able to deliver should remember that there is something called adoption and there are many people out there who want to take in children that aren't gonna be able to be cared for by their biological parents.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/5/2004, 8:03 pm

hpdfk wrote:Somehow I can't see Canada's population withering away because of abortion .

and what about the 6.1% like my mom? Aren't they people too? I can understand aspects of abortion that are not right. I'm not comfortable with People who have them at certain stages or without a tangible reason. But to simply block out ALL abortions without considering the consequences is not acceptable. In certain cases a fetus will bring harm to the mother. In others the child will be brought up in a miserable life because they have never seen their biological parents or live in poverty because of their birth. And what about people who are raped where the child is a reminder of a horrible act of violence? or incest?
I currently have a friend who is pregnant. She's 14. She's not getting an abortion, but if she wanted to and was denied the opportunity, could she have the money to raise the child? Would she be mature enough to love it?

That 6.1% are definetely worth noting but the fact remains that most abortions are carried out for selfish reasons. We have to understand that an abortion deals with the issue of human lives. If abortion remains legal you may be able to save that 6.1 percent of mothers who's life is being threatened but you will not be able to save the children of the other 93 percent who abort for illegitimate reasons. Life is life. We cant justify killing a child because, by doing so we are saving them from a harsh life. Like I said adoption IS an option. There are plenty of caring couples who would love to take in a child. I'm sure most adopted children would say that they would rather live with their adopted parents than die because their mother didnt want them.

hpdfk · Post by **hpdfk** » 6/5/2004, 8:08 pm

I see logic in your reasoning, but to have a general rule illegalizing ALL abortions foolish. Aside from health risks, there are people who are raped that end up having children against their will. There are people who are raped by their relatives and end up having a developmentally disabled child against their own will.

As for people who don't have these issues, we can obtain stem cells from these abortions to benefit those who already have lives in full bloom. Ending a human life is never the right thing to do. But still we solve problems with wars and assasinations. Granted a fetus is not an evil dictator but the consequences of keeping it can sometimes be worse than removing it.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/5/2004, 8:16 pm

But who can say what fetus will develop into a Hitler or Saddam? Even if the technology did exist, genetically selecting which child can live and which child cannot is evil on its own right.

Now the issue or rape is a tricky one. On the one hand I can see your standpoint but I still do not think it justifys killing the child. The child is innocent and no matter how much pain the mother has to endure in having that child, its not ok to rid of it. In all honesty I doubt killing that child would make the mother feel any better. Even if it did that child should be given a right to live regardless of the means in which it was concieved. The mother doesnt have to keep that memory. They can pass the child on to someone else.

SpiritualJunkie · Post by **SpiritualJunkie** » 6/5/2004, 8:18 pm

It is not a child's fault if they are the result of a rape. Using the excuse that they are gonna haunt the victim for the rest of their lives makes sense but I'd think that it would be the perpetrator that would haunt them even more. The child could easily be given up for adoption and the rape victim would never have to deal with the kid ever again.

I remember reading an article on some girl in the Middle East who was raped by her brother. She got pregnant and ran away to deliver the baby. When she came back home, her mother killed her because of the dishonour she caused her family for being pregnant with a relative's baby. It's a truly sad story and the only good thing to come out of it, IMO, is that the child was born healthy and that it ended up living with another family. Hopefully, it never will have to deal with the family that brought it to life in the first place.

hpdfk · Post by **hpdfk** » 6/5/2004, 8:22 pm

That's not what I meant. My argument wasn't that there's the possibility that the baby is evil. That's just silly. My point was that just like in war or assasination, the consequences of keeping a life sometimes outnumber the ones of ending it.

I suddenly have a whole new outlook on stealing babies.

SpiritualJunkie · Post by **SpiritualJunkie** » 6/5/2004, 8:24 pm

Well, we don't have any way of knowing what a baby's life will be like before it is born, so who are we to judge beforehand?

hpdfk · Post by **hpdfk** » 6/5/2004, 8:28 pm

As I said before that's not what I meant. That would be foolish to randomly assume a baby is evil without any proof or plausibility.

SpiritualJunkie · Post by **SpiritualJunkie** » 6/5/2004, 8:33 pm

No, I was answering the thing you said about the consequences of keeping a life sometimes outnumbering the ones of ending it.

hpdfk · Post by **hpdfk** » 6/5/2004, 8:37 pm

If you are confused by my comparison of war to abortion, I'm sorry.

If not, we DO have technology to determine if the child will be developmentally disabled or if continuing pregnancy will be dangerous for the mother. That is how we know what it will be like beforehand.

Penguin Josh · Post by **Penguin Josh** » 6/5/2004, 8:43 pm

there was a chance i was going to be aborted, that is if i was mentally challenged, because it runs in the family and one of my aunts died because of it, but i wasn't so i am still here.

[/spam]

hpdfk · Post by **hpdfk** » 6/5/2004, 9:54 pm

I now think Stealing Babies is about abortion

Eve stands alone.........

She's not ready to go........

But the ghost on the phone helps her..........

And I just realized you did understand my point and you were confusing me.

Like abortion, justifying assasination or war depends on perspective. The people who assasinated MLK thought they made a choice that would benefit mankind. Did it? no. If we assasinated Osama would it benefit mankind? Well......it would benefit the western world at the least. Abortion is as shaky as assasination. To make generalizations on either is wrong. Look at specific cases like my mom. Maybe the careless single mom with a ninth child on the way shouldn't receive abortion, but shouldn't my mom? Would it be acceptable to allow SOME abortions?

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/5/2004, 10:06 pm

I AM ME wrote:
And if it is a blow against god because we are changing the overall purpose and taking a unborn life. Then is it not the same thing when the bible belt executes hundreds of inmates? Is that not defying God's will?

I dont see the point your trying to make. Killing is killing whether its an unborn child child or an inmate in a jail. I completely disagree with the death penalty. Did you assume otherwise?

hpdfk · Post by **hpdfk** » 6/5/2004, 10:14 pm

Taylor is not your stereotypical christian conservative sean

.

I think taylor is politically independent. He has an interesting mixture of secular and religious beliefs.

Furthermore he's not hyprocritcal like the blokes you mention.