Finally, a religion/anti-religion thread.

[joe_canadian]

on a wide scale what you describe can be seen, maybe. and granted there are those who only use religion as you describe. but you're making a blanket statement about all religious belief. not all belief is an excuse for opression and violence, that's an absurd statement that homogenizes all theists. you're saying that all theists are bad people, precisely what you were defending yourself against when you felt that others were saying that all atheist are bad people. it's not true and it's not fair.

[Johnny]

I have no problems with religion.

[Henrietta]

She is not saying theists are bad people. She is saying theists generally use their belief as an excuse. Makes sense to me. People who make excuses are not necessarily bad.

There has been religion since there has been man, it will never change.

[starseed_10]

i dont know if anyone's said this yet, but america attacked iraq supposedly for the "safety of the free world/america...." this was NOT a religious war. same goes for most wars.

[Henrietta]

Yes, but if you asked why freedom is essential, the argument is going to go back to religion eventually. Not that I disagree.

[One-Eye]

Religion on a mass scale is always dangerous. I'm not saying individual believers are bad or at fault or murderers, etc. But religion IS a tool that thrives on power, and the results of that ARE bad. If Jesus really was the son of God, and all the Bible says is true, does that mean that the use of its teachings to justify murder and destruction are okay? No. Jesus never preached violence. Nor did Mohammed. But look at what is being done in their names today. As I said, religion, or more accurately, the twisting of religion toward destructive ends, is a symptom of the problem. Power and subjugation (the state that Doug speaks of) are other symptoms. Religion and the state aren't inherently bad. Neither should be destroyed; that'd be as useless as trying to stop cancer by simply covering up the surface symptoms. It is impossible to destroy the true disease, because it is part of all of us. Call it original sin or human nature. It's there, and it's horrible, and we can do nothing about it but fight the battle within ourselves.

So in short, I didn't mean to offend.

[Narbus]

State does not refer only to America. State refers to thousands and thousands of years of greed. Such as the Roman Empire (a state) and the Crusades.

There are quite a few things in the Book of Mormon that directly contradict the Bible, such as the 'people can become God' thing. So there you go.

Actually, the Book of Mormon compliments the Bible quite nicely. Have you ever read it?

Compliments? Really. Let's see.

We do believe ourselves to be Christian, because the basic definition of Christianity is to believe in Christ, which me most certainly do. I think the reason that the bigger churches say we are not Christian is because we don't look at the Godhead in the same light. God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are not the same person.

Acts 5
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

------------

Isaiah 43:10 "no God was formed before me, neither shall there be after."

------------
John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

------------

Mark 2
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

------------

John 20
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

------------

Matthew 14
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 28
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Exodus 20
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

They believe that God is once as we were. In other words, he had to have gone through a mortal life.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

------------

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

------------

John 1:16-18, "And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

------------

1 Timothy 1:17, "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."

------------

1 Timothy 6:16, "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

------------

Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

We also believe that we can become Gods and Godesses.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

------------

Isaiah 44
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

------------

1 Corinthians 8
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

[starseed_10]

wow. you know your stuff.

a lot depends on the interpretation of the Bible from both religions. those verses probably arent all interpreted the same way.

[Narbus]

I am interested to know how Jesus can't be God if he can take over God's realms (forgiveness).

I am interested in how the "Lying to the holy spirit is lying to God" thing can imply anything but the Holy Spirit is God.

I am interested in how God could both create the whole world, including mankind, and yet have to ascend to godhood by living as a mortal.

I am interested in how "before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." could possibly be interpreted to mean that people can become Gods.




I'm still trying to figure out what I believe. Since Doug isn't as big in in the faith area as he has been in the political one, I have had fewer walls to bounce ideas off of. This does not mean I haven't looked at different religions and philosophies, or that I am undereducated in them.

[call me andrew]

the state is the number one killer of people in the history of the world.

no I'm right. The state is acting in the way of its culture which always follows some religion. George Bush for example is a Christian and does what he thinks a "good" Christian should do while Osama is a muslim and does what he thinks the Koran tells him to do. Religions clash and thats why states clash.

actualy. osama is not muslim. and W is not christian. W is the president, and osama is a cia agent. remember the cold war thing? yeah. so w tells the cia to tell osama to do stuff so w can invade countries. HA!


all the above was kurayzy. oh yeah. and i dont believe in god.

[Axtech]

I am interested in how the "Lying to the holy spirit is lying to God" thing can imply anything but the Holy Spirit is God.

That could be interpreted to say that lying to the holy spirit is just as bad as lying to god. And that if one was to lie to the holy spirit, he/she might as well be lying to god.

I am interested to know how Jesus can't be God if he can take over God's realms (forgiveness).

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. But isn't Jesus supposed to be the son of god? That was my understanding, anyways. As for taking over god's realms, I don't know what that means. But perhaps being the son of god would allow someone to do this?



It's all in interpretation. I don't even believe this, and I've interpreted (the first point at least) differently. And there's no way to say that I'm wrong. Who's to say what the "correct" interpretation is?

[Narbus]

That could be interpreted to say that lying to the holy spirit is just as bad as lying to god. And that if one was to lie to the holy spirit, he/she might as well be lying to god.

The exact line from the Bible was:

Acts 5
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

It's not "hast not lied unto men, but just as lying unto God," or "hast not lied unto men, but may as well have lied unto God." It's "hast not lied unto men, but unto God."

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. But isn't Jesus supposed to be the son of god? That was my understanding, anyways. As for taking over god's realms, I don't know what that means. But perhaps being the son of god would allow someone to do this?

Read the verse.

Mark 2
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Jesus forgave sins. Only God can forgive sins. Ergo...

Plus, there's this little number, John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."
Not, "I and my father are really close," or "I and my father are as one," but "I and my father are one."

Also, in John 8:58, he took the name I AM (Yehovah), which is the name God used in Exodus 3:14.



I understand your need to pussyfoot around and not hurt anyone's views. But this is how it is. The Book of Mormon directly contradicts the Bible. Only one can be true. That's all there is to it.

[One-Eye]

Ah, semantics. The most meaningless of sciences.

[Narbus]

Ah, semantics. The most meaningless of sciences.

So if it isn't important to you, it must not be important to anyone?




PS: I was there during your little semantic debates with doug. Don't pull this crap with me.

[buzhwa]

I don't know if I believe in a divine presence or not. I just try to follow the Golden Rule, which is basically in the writings of every religion.

[One-Eye]

I like arguing semantics, but I fully recognize the futility of doing so.

Keep in mind that you are reading a Bible that has been translated numerous times from one language into another. If you were to get a different version of the Bible, you'd probably find those passages worded differently. All I'm saying is, be careful how literally you take things. It's silly to argue that kind of stuff when so much is changed and lost in the translation.

[Narbus]

And had I not provided multiple verses for each instance, you may have a point there.

The King James Version of the Bible was used, which is widely regarded as the most accurate translation of the Bible.

Also, we still have the original manuscripts the Bible was translated from. These things have been cross-checked over and over.

PS: I only hit the points that were brought up in this thread in regards to Mormons and Christianity, and the differences thereof. There are quite a few more out there. I can supply them if you'd like.

[One-Eye]

Perhaps you should compare your Bible passages against ones from the Book of Mormon itself, rather than against Cass's simplified summary. If you want to go down the semantics road, at least make it less one-sided.

[Henrietta]

Exactly. I cannot ezplain to EXACTLY how this works. I can tell you that we believe the Bible to be true in as much as it has been translated CORRECTLY! It has been going through priests hands for thousands upon thousands of years, and if you take every word literally, then you are fooling yourself. Now the Book of Mormon has only been translated for a little over 100 years. So which one has more chance of accurate.

Jesus Christ is the son of God. His only begotten. You are contradicting yourself if you say that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God are one. Because of Jesus Christ came to earth to die for our sins, and the atonement really happened, then in essence, God DID come to Earth. Right? Y

You can quote your heart out from the Bible, but until you read the actual Book of Mormon, then you can't really contradict anything cause you are only going up against a very imperfect member of the church. If you want the details, you ought to talk to missionaries.

[Narbus]

I don't own those books, and they aren't quite as easy to find online, so I'll do what I can.
If SpclAgntCass cares to provide some quotes, then I'll be able to do more. Until then, here's what I can do.

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345).

This is refuted by the man verses up above, including, most prominently, Genesis, where God created the whole of the world, including man. How could God be as we once were and still create us?


"When the Virgin Mary conceived the Child Jesus.... He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is his Father? He is the first of the human family" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, pp. 50-51).

Refuted by:
Matt 1:18 "She was found with child by the Holy Spirit"




"Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Receiving the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands, Morality, Loyalty, Tithing, Word of Wisdom, Duty Celestial Marriage (for eternity)" Articles of Faith, No. 4
"No man who rejects the testimony of Joseph Smith can enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1 pg. 190).
"Men have work to do if they would obtain salvation" (Doctrines of Salvation. vol. 3, pg. 91).


Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.