ClumsyMonkey.net

J-Neli is right. The government would be in a heap of trouble if 1/2 of the country's population refused to pay taxes or follow laws or what not. However, it would be impossible to coordinate 1/2 of the country's population to do so therefore it is pointless to debate this point.

I wouldn't say it is impossible, but rather more unlikely. People don't realize the power they havein numbers, and all it takes is for something to finally click to change that. It's how revolutions occur. They do happen rarely but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

well let's break it down here, 1/2 the people don't pay taxes. and when one of these people's relatives dies because he/she didn't get the healthcare they needed because this guy was being an ass hole, he can blame himself for it. this is just one scenario of many that can prevent 1/2 of the masses to actually not pay their taxes.

The way i see it anarchism is just another ideal poltical theory that is perfect on paper but immpossible in real life outside of small communities. The same can be said for communism. Which is why i'm no communist, i believe in democracy, because although it's flawed it's the most freedom we can give a people with out hell breaking loose.

Bandalero wrote:well let's break it down here, 1/2 the people don't pay taxes. and when one of these people's relatives dies because he/she didn't get the healthcare they needed because this guy was being an ass hole, he can blame himself for it. this is just one scenario of many that can prevent 1/2 of the masses to actually not pay their taxes.

death happens in a revolution. This idea is not meant to be an "anarchist" ideal either. It's a protest against the way tax dollars are spent on weapons of mass destruction. If someone doesn't want their money being put towards the death of others, they should have the right to that choice.

But what about everything else their tax dollars go to. Roads schools health care what ever other essential service is needed. If you decide not to pay your taxes because you believe that war is wrong, then you also have to forfeit your right to other things such as school roads et al. because your tax dollar goes towards them as well.

I AM ME wrote:The way i see it anarchism is just another ideal poltical theory that is perfect on paper but immpossible in real life outside of small communities. The same can be said for communism. Which is why i'm no communist, i believe in democracy, because although it's flawed it's the most freedom we can give a people with out hell breaking loose.

ok first of all, communism is not perfect. when you say that both communism and anarchism are perfect in "theory" you're contradicting yourself.

they can't both be right. communism is based on force, anarchy is not.

and an anarchist civil society would be possible. in fact, i'll go as far as to say we will see one in our life times.

Korzic wrote:But what about everything else their tax dollars go to. Roads schools health care what ever other essential service is needed. If you decide not to pay your taxes because you believe that war is wrong, then you also have to forfeit your right to other things such as school roads et al. because your tax dollar goes towards them as well.

That's fine, There are sacrifices that would have to be made and those would be some of them. I would like to think the government would realize what was going on and try and comprimize with those who are revolting.

Basically, I think that if we absolutely have to pay taxes under the current system, why couldn't we decide where those taxes are going? That way no one can complain. At least they know their money is going towards what they want. People will learn what is important in their society instead of letting other's decide for them. If for some reason no one put money into road repairs, then the next year the roads will be shit and everyone will learn that they need to put a portion of their taxes towards it.

I won't go as for as say anarchy will happen in our life, but I would like to think that we will have a lot more choice in the way our lives are run in the future.

mosaik wrote:

I AM ME wrote:The way i see it anarchism is just another ideal poltical theory that is perfect on paper but immpossible in real life outside of small communities. The same can be said for communism. Which is why i'm no communist, i believe in democracy, because although it's flawed it's the most freedom we can give a people with out hell breaking loose.

ok first of all, communism is not perfect. when you say that both communism and anarchism are perfect in "theory" you're contradicting yourself.

they can't both be right. communism is based on force, anarchy is not.

and an anarchist civil society would be possible. in fact, i'll go as far as to say we will see one in our life times.

I what i meant is that they both look great and right on paper, but neither works in real life on a large scale. Both deal with falls to the inherent flaws of humanity. Greed, agression, anger, and just plain mental instability all make complete soicalism or anarchism immpossible ona large scale.

When i said communism i don't mean russian, i just mean socialistic ideas in general. Everyone working for the common good of a community, sharing equaly, being treated equally, and having no true leader. Such and such. It actually works quite well in Hutterite colonies around Manitoba, although it still isn't perfect. Largely because of their faith aswell though.

By the way does anyone outside MB know what a Hutterite is?

As far as i'm concerned the human brains programing isn't even compatible with Anarchism. For more reasons then the previous ones i stated. Naturally we are a pack animal, we have a driving instict to form groups and designate leaders. This does not really go along with the whole lone wolf theory that anarchism deals with. As humans, we're incapable of living up to what would be needed for anarchism to function perfectly, just as we're incapable of living of to what is needed for communism to work.

You say communism is based on use of force, but i can guarantee any Anarchist colony would also have rampant use of force against others. Hell, in the past i've seen you speak of force being used.

The point is Complete Socialism and Complete Anarchism immpossible at our current evolutionary level. We are incappable of conquering our flaws on that large of scale. And if anything Socialism has more links to crucial strategies that helped us survive this long then Anarchism. It was through sharing, and community living that we first carved out an existence. Lone wolves died.

Man is created imperfect right? we have flaws. Therefore, anything man creates must be imperfect as well since an imperfect being cannot create perfection, so that means government is automatically flawed and imperfect.

http://www.strike-the-root.com/minerva.html

Read that.

Bob Murphy is one of the leading pragmatic anarchists, almost all of his writing deals with how a free socieity would function

that book is long but it looks at how an anarchist country would exist in the real world and it covers a span of over twenty years and deals with several problems you people have mentioned here.

Read that and then tell me the free market isn't possible.

J-Neli wrote:

Bandalero wrote:well let's break it down here, 1/2 the people don't pay taxes. and when one of these people's relatives dies because he/she didn't get the healthcare they needed because this guy was being an ass hole, he can blame himself for it. this is just one scenario of many that can prevent 1/2 of the masses to actually not pay their taxes.

death happens in a revolution. This idea is not meant to be an "anarchist" ideal either. It's a protest against the way tax dollars are spent on weapons of mass destruction. If someone doesn't want their money being put towards the death of others, they should have the right to that choice.

says the man that doesn't approve of the violence in Iraq. if only 1/2 of all tax revenue comes in, they'll still appropriate the same percentage to defense. there just won't be as much money. in fact, strike that, what the government will do is sell bonds to other countries to make up for the loss in tax revenue, so defense will still get all or most of it's budget, while healthcare, education, and healthcare will bear the brunt of this foolishness. protest doesn't work anymore, in this example you have to take power from those in powwer currently. the way you do that, WITHOUT DEATH, is to take power through elections and scare the rest into believing that if they don't change their ways, your political revolution will bury them.

Got to disagree with you there Reno. There is no way the US would be able to make up the amount lost in taxes through bonds. That's trillions of dollars we're talking here, and the US would owe a large favour to every and any country who helped then out of this jam. The US would not want that just to be able to make a few bombs. At least any smart country wouldn't.

Protest doesn't work, but revolt does. Look at what is going on in the Ukraine right now. People are demonstrating and holding strikes. That is what any country needs to cause change. It's far more easier to accomplish as well than a political movement dependant on a democratic system.

J-Neli wrote:Man is created imperfect right? we have flaws. Therefore, anything man creates must be imperfect as well since an imperfect being cannot create perfection, so that means government is automatically flawed and imperfect.

I've acknowledged that government is flawed. It's very flawed. But how does your comment support anarchism.

And and Doug (Chris?) i'll read it, i've been meaning to read it for awhile now, actually i've been meaning to read up on all of the political systems. But considering i'm not in University right now and i'm pretty much working 24/7 i haven't had much time to even use my brain

I AM ME wrote:

J-Neli wrote:Man is created imperfect right? we have flaws. Therefore, anything man creates must be imperfect as well since an imperfect being cannot create perfection, so that means government is automatically flawed and imperfect.

I've acknowledged that government is flawed. It's very flawed. But how does your comment support anarchism.

Anarchy is the only natural system.

Anarchy is natural in animals such as felines and sharks. Not in Humans and other pack animals. It's our instict to form into groups for the betterment of us all

without this instict our race would have died out long ago. It provided us with the ability to evolve our minds, and develop civilization. If we had grown as solo animals, or just lived in families, we would not be anywhere near we are now. Infact we woudl probably be teh same as our chimp cousins, in lifestyle and intelligence.

you can form groups. I never said we had to live in isolation from one another, but anarchists would say that there is a difference between groups and hierarchies.

I don't know if you've read Hobbes or Locke, but they both look at the reasons why government was established, and our modern system seems to be a combination of both philosopher's but more so Locke's.

We also naturally form hierarchies, but i'm not going to argue that hierarchies are an ideal. Socialist ideas believe in a soicety without a set in stone leader as well.

What is diffrent between a groups of people in anarchist society and governments? They would be basically the same on a smaller scale. Gangs would form and they have hierarchies just as surely as government does.