No more smoking in New York State

happening fish · Post by **happening fish** » 8/22/2003, 11:14 am

Yeah I was talking about Canada, because I don't claim to know anything about American smoking laws.

Ignignokt · Post by **Ignignokt** » 8/22/2003, 12:46 pm

J-Neli, theres a limit to what you can do on your personal property. obviously you cant kill someone. or assault them.

and dont say that "second hand smoke hurts me" because we've already proven that it doesnt do jack shit because of the speedy regenerative properties of the lung. also, all the those "chemicals" you say you're ingesting from second hand smoke... u think cig smoke is the only place you get those chemicals? the exhaust on your car spits out the same carbon monoxide. factories spit out the same chemicals. so don't tell me that cig smoke is this all dangerous problem. cause we've been living with factories and cars for quiet a while now.

people need to get off their asses and research something before you're gonna argue it instead of watching some stupid "STAND" commercial, which are all bullshit.

nelison · Post by **nelison** » 8/22/2003, 1:26 pm

Who would enforce what the limit was? According to you guys you have the right to do whatever you want on your property and no one should be able to dictate otherwise. So therefore someone is infringing on your right to do what you want on your property if you're told you can't shoot someone on your property. How can you draw a line in a society based upon everyone for themselves?

As well seeing how there are many people allergic to smoke it does hurt some. I had severe bronchitis for a year because my parents smoked. We had to literally strip our entire house and they had to stop smoking before it got better. We didn't just do this because this is what we thought was the problem. Doctors were telling us that second hand smoke was the cause of it.

Yahoo Health - Effects of Second Hand Smoke
http://health.yahoo.com/health/centers/smoke_free/1.html
Exposure to environmental tobacco smoke (also called ETS, passive smoking or second hand smoke) includes exhaled smoke as well as smoke from burning cigarettes. Studies have shown that environmental tobacco smoke can cause lung cancer in healthy nonsmokers. It is also associated with sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) and low-birth weight infants.Babies and children raised in a household where there is smoking have more ear infections, colds, bronchitis, and other respiratory problems than children from nonsmoking families. Environmental smoke can also cause eye irritation, headaches, nausea, and dizziness.

Health Canada
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hecs-sesc/tobacco/facts/
(This year) more than 300 non-smokers will die of lung cancer and at least 700 non-smokers will die of coronary heart disease caused by exposure to second-hand smoke.

Tobacco smoke contains over 4,000 chemicals, including at least 50 that cause, initiate or promote cancer such as tar, ammonia, carbon monoxide, oxides of nitrogen and benzopyrene.

World Health Organisation
Exposure to the ETS from a spouse increases the risk of getting lung cancer by 16%.

To say that it doesn't harm anyone is oftly naive.
I admit that factories, cars, etc produce harmful toxens as well, but we are attempting to change that be forcing emission tests (at least this is the case in Canada). SO it's not like the govt is only picking on smokers. They're picking on car manufacturers and factories to ensure that our world is a cleaner place for us, our children, and their children. I ask of you, since when is good health a bad thing?

Ignignokt · Post by **Ignignokt** » 8/22/2003, 2:07 pm

obviously the smoke hurt you because you're allergic to it

im allergic to grass, so do i ask the guy next door to never cut his lawn?

no.

i just dont go outside or be aroudn when he does mow his lawn. same with cigs. if you dont like the smoke, then leave, no one is making you be there

Narbus · Post by **Narbus** » 8/22/2003, 9:37 pm

J-Neli: as I stated before, so long as you do not forcefully infringe on the right to life, liberty, or property of others, do with your property what you will.

"Tricking" people into being shot, or whatever because you don't let them know what they're getting into would be defrauding them, and a forceful attack on that person, therefore illegal.

If you walk into a resturant where you know smoking is allowed, then you know exactly what you're getting into, and are making your own decision.

I'd still like to know why you're so intent on holding everyone's hand through life.

Eelco · Post by **Eelco** » 8/23/2003, 8:47 am

Second-hand smoke doesn't hurt only people who are allergic to it, it's bad for anyone's health. Even if you don't have an allergy it's not good to get chemicals into your lungs, just like with exhaust fumes and factories etc.

I do agree that the government shouldn't ban smoking in private places, because everyone should be entitled to decide for themselves whether they smoke or not and what they do on their own property.
But I think it's backwards to say that non-smokers have the choice to avoid places where people smoke. If you smoke, you chose to do that and you should base that choice upon knowing that it's bad for your health, for the health of other people and that it's not allowed in certain (public) places.

By the way, it's not just the American government that's making these kind of laws. The Dutch government even wants to ban smoking in coffee shops (the dutch kind of coffee shops, not the ones where people drink coffee

).

Ignignokt · Post by **Ignignokt** » 8/23/2003, 2:05 pm

amsterdam

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 8/25/2003, 2:55 pm

Maxwell Murder wrote:if you dont like the smoke, then leave, no one is making you be there

If you don't like to not smoke, then leave, no one is making you be there.

You said before that smoking is a right. It's not. Smoking is not something you need, and it is not something that benefits you in any way (except of course for feeding your addiction, but you wouldn't have that addiction without cigs, so that's void).

However, being able to go about one's life without inhaling smoke everywhere they go is a right.

Ignignokt · Post by **Ignignokt** » 8/25/2003, 3:52 pm

nope.

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 8/25/2003, 4:36 pm

Wow. You sure out-witted me there.

Ignignokt · Post by **Ignignokt** » 8/25/2003, 4:45 pm

i wasn;t responding to your post

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 8/25/2003, 4:56 pm

okay...

Narbus · Post by **Narbus** » 8/25/2003, 10:10 pm

Axtech wrote:If you don't like to not smoke, then leave, no one is making you be there.

You said before that smoking is a right. It's not. Smoking is not something you need, and it is not something that benefits you in any way (except of course for feeding your addiction, but you wouldn't have that addiction without cigs, so that's void).

However, being able to go about one's life without inhaling smoke everywhere they go is a right.

Then outlaw cars, industrial factories, power plants, etc etc etc. They pump FAR more smoke into the air than cigarettes.

Unless of course, you were exaggerating because you really have no point here, because, as I've pointed out multiple times in this thread, there are a mighty fuck-ton of places, resturants, bars, and bowling alleys included, where smoking is already prohibited. You don't breathe in cigarette smoke "everywhere you go."

And yes, choosing to smoke is a right. A person has the right to choose what to do with their own body. If a person chooses to inhale carcinogens and toxic fumes, then so be it. You, on the other hand, do not have the right to tell a person what they can and cannot do with their own body.

Again, and this is the point that I have yet to see you actually counter, a private business owner should have the right to choose what to do with their own property that they paid for and worked for.

happening fish · Post by **happening fish** » 8/25/2003, 10:41 pm

So make suicide legal, and prostitution and cocaine then.

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 8/25/2003, 10:46 pm

How can suicide be illegal? You do it, you're dead. They can't arrest you or give you a ticket.

Dr. Hobo · Post by **Dr. Hobo** » 8/25/2003, 11:00 pm

being a danger to your own life is against the law

in the state of florida if you attempt to kill yourself you are, by court order, forced to spend 72 hours in a psychiatric facility

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 8/25/2003, 11:01 pm

Well if you put a bullet through your brain, I don't think anyone will be too concerned with anything more than cleaning up the mess.

Dr. Hobo · Post by **Dr. Hobo** » 8/25/2003, 11:01 pm

that doesnt make it legal tho heh

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 8/25/2003, 11:03 pm

Yeah, well, there's no point in charging a dead body for suicide. :lol:

Narbus · Post by **Narbus** » 8/25/2003, 11:04 pm

happeningfish wrote:So make suicide legal, and prostitution and cocaine then.

I personally don't see why any of these should be illegal in the first place.

The only one that has any kind of arguement behind it is suicide, as there have to be some VERY dire circumstances behind a person trying to kill themselves, so a person acting to take their own life is not acting in any kind of rational manner (euthanasia is the obvious exclusion). So the question becomes, how much responsibility should I take for dealing with an irrational person in this kind of situation? But that's a whole different thread.