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[quote="Venom]
The rest of the world was not attacked like America was on 9/11. The rest of the world would rather see terrorism as a "nuisance" (like Kerry was quoted as saying) rather than the serious issue that it has become.[/quote]

What about Spain? What about Saudi Arabia, Iraq or Indonesia? Russia's had two "9/11"s this year. I woun't even touch Israel. There are plenty of places in the World where terrorism is a serious threat. True, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Indonesia all take aggressive stances. But look at where it's got them. Remember the movie theater incident with chechnyan rebels or the public school incident? How about the SECOND INFINTADA? The one acception is Spain. Spain has since developed a left-leaning government. They've pulled out of Iraq and now denounce the Bush administration. How they will fare in terms of security I'm not quite sure. But I have a feeling spain will do just fine taking a passive stance on terror (using a minimal amount of military action to do it's share in the "war").

As for the infintada:
During the clinton administration, arafat and yitzhak rabin (I think) won the nobel prize for settling a peace accord. And for a few years it was effective. Until 2003, the bush administration did not do a SINGLE thing to help end the conflict. He did make a roadway to peace, but did not actively follow it the way clinton would have. Nor has he made an effort to get it back on track.

Errr... while Indonesia does not sponsor terrorism, they are not attacked. As the largest Muslim nation in the world it makes little sense to attack them. What has been attacked in Indonesia however is Western interests (The Australian Embassy in Jakarta, the Mariott Hotel, the Sari Club in Bali). Indonesia is home to Abu Bakar Bashir, spiritual leader of Jemaah Islamiah, SE Asia's most prominent terrorist network/group (currently on trial).

Russia's war with terror is primarily concerned the Chechen separatists who are after separation from Russia and nothing more and Russia has every right to want to keep part of their country togeter (its like California trying to secede) and Israel is at war with Hamas ove rthe creation of a Palestinian state and because theyd like to survive instead of be wiped out.

Before 9/11 there was a lot of apathy towards terrorism. After 9/11 there was a much more agressive approach. Al Qaeda brought this on themselves. Don't ever blame anyone but them.

There will never be another Rabin, its a pity he was assassinated. However with Arafat's impending demise, I think that peace will finally be achieved in Israel for the time being (providing there's a decent replacement)

Then you obviously dont know very much about the situation. I have taken NO side about the whole middle east issue, although it can be very hard when my best friend is Israeli. However, I have heard her story, just as i've heard the Palestinian side. A peaceful leader does not mean peace. The people of the new generation in Palestine and Israel hate each other. Even if a peaceful leader were to come in, the resentment and wounds wouldnt just be magically healed.

Venom wrote:

Your country is debatably the most powerful nation in the world[which i'm very sure you know].

LOL debatably? Ok humor me.....what country could be more powerful than the US?

How about China? China has what something like 3 billion people living there and their communist. Bush hates communism and he has always fought against communism. But he has never gone up against China, because he is afraid of China, because America just doesn't have the power to take on a country of that size.

I forget who said what now, so I'm just gonna say this. Someone mentioned that Osama only attacks countries that attacked his people, and we all call him a terrorist. Well Bush is now attacking countries that hurt his people....well not Iraq, Iraq wasn't involved in 9/11 but they have those damned invisible WMDS right? Oh but some of you say that Osama is a terrorist because he killed innocent people. Whats that? 60 000+ CIVILIANS have died in Iraq because of the war. Wow it looks like Bush fits the criteria of a terrorist too, according to the claims being made. He's fighting for peace, Osama says he is fighting for peace, their both fighting for peace. Also you people say that Osama was trying to rig the election by sending that tape then? Does nobody find it a little suspcious that it came out at such a convienient time for Bush? Has anyone stopped to consider he was holding the tape back for that reason?

Rusty wrote:

Venom wrote:

Your country is debatably the most powerful nation in the world[which i'm very sure you know].

LOL debatably? Ok humor me.....what country could be more powerful than the US?

How about China? China has what something like 3 billion people living there and their communist. Bush hates communism and he has always fought against communism. But he has never gone up against China, because he is afraid of China, because America just doesn't have the power to take on a country of that size.

I forget who said what now, so I'm just gonna say this. Someone mentioned that Osama only attacks countries that attacked his people, and we all call him a terrorist. Well Bush is now attacking countries that hurt his people....well not Iraq, Iraq wasn't involved in 9/11 but they have those damned invisible WMDS right? Oh but some of you say that Osama is a terrorist because he killed innocent people. Whats that? 60 000+ CIVILIANS have died in Iraq because of the war. Wow it looks like Bush fits the criteria of a terrorist too, according to the claims being made. He's fighting for peace, Osama says he is fighting for peace, their both fighting for peace. Also you people say that Osama was trying to rig the election by sending that tape then? Does nobody find it a little suspcious that it came out at such a convienient time for Bush? Has anyone stopped to consider he was holding the tape back for that reason?

Oh dear. No... really... oh deary deary me. IN their present state... China are not more powerful than the US. They don't have the international clout. Sure China is a power, but its not as powerful as the US.

Now for the 2nd part. i don't know how many of you bleeding hearts have bothered to research the attitude of the Iraqi people other than what you hear on the news. I think that you'll find that the majority of Iraqis are happy that the US government kicked out Saddam. They may not be fully happy with the whole aftermath but as a general rule, they're happy. But stories like that don;t sell as well as A BAZILLION PEOPLE DEAD AFTER TERRORIST BLOWS HIMSELF UP!. Well hey look, people aren't being tortured for saying Saddam sucks. People aren't being slaughtered for thinking for themselves instead of Saddam. They're education is better now than what is was under Saddam. Saddam rules is not a valid education. But of course these things are always overlooked in favour of ZOMG PEOPLE DEAD BUSH SUCKS LOL!

Also... America wasn't the only one to believe that Iraq had WMD's. I could go through the whole list of countries including Canada before the war but that would nullify the whole argument of LOL AMERICA DIDNT FIND WMDS THEREFORE THEY SUX LOL! Because everyone else believed it too. Aint hindsight great? Real easy to criticise on hindsight. I didn't see anyone jumping up and down before Iraq about them not having WMD's.

[slight edit for the people that need things in hard print rather than implied]And you know what? I REALLY FUCKING HATE people that think Bush is somehow on par with Osama. FUCK YOU! He sits there and plots the deaths of innocent people because you were unfortunate to be born in a country that opposes his beliefs of the oppression of women, of totalitarian religious rule which is far stricter than anything you ever imagine. Would you like me to stone you for your opinion? If you support his actions go live with him, and I hope to God they find you and you end up at Camp Xray. and again FUCK YOU.

Finally. Bush has no control over what Al Jazeera releases, the Arab TV network that released the video for Osama. Conspiracy theories are cool yo, but not when they're baseless and make you look like a fucking retard.

PS This post made me angry... the Osama bit anyways. It just carries.

EDIT 2: After some time thinking about htis... I find its often best if I hold myself to my own values that I argue So... in retrospect, he has a right to his opinion. I just happen to think it's a really BAD one.

i'm still trying to find the part where he wrote osama was a good guy though.

Cambell you obviously don't understand the situation in Russia if you can compare it to California seperating. Chechen's have always been a seperate diverse culture and at several times periods a seperate country itself. They have more in common with Palestine then California

A bad analogy perhaps. Picked it because theres a lot of Mexicans in Southern California... perhaps a better example would be if Hawaii were to decide it wanted to secede

No, a good example would be Quebec from Canada. Only without the horrible violence.

Korzic wrote:

Rusty wrote:

Venom wrote:

Your country is debatably the most powerful nation in the world[which i'm very sure you know].

LOL debatably? Ok humor me.....what country could be more powerful than the US?

How about China? China has what something like 3 billion people living there and their communist. Bush hates communism and he has always fought against communism. But he has never gone up against China, because he is afraid of China, because America just doesn't have the power to take on a country of that size.

I forget who said what now, so I'm just gonna say this. Someone mentioned that Osama only attacks countries that attacked his people, and we all call him a terrorist. Well Bush is now attacking countries that hurt his people....well not Iraq, Iraq wasn't involved in 9/11 but they have those damned invisible WMDS right? Oh but some of you say that Osama is a terrorist because he killed innocent people. Whats that? 60 000+ CIVILIANS have died in Iraq because of the war. Wow it looks like Bush fits the criteria of a terrorist too, according to the claims being made. He's fighting for peace, Osama says he is fighting for peace, their both fighting for peace. Also you people say that Osama was trying to rig the election by sending that tape then? Does nobody find it a little suspcious that it came out at such a convienient time for Bush? Has anyone stopped to consider he was holding the tape back for that reason?

Oh dear. No... really... oh deary deary me. IN their present state... China are not more powerful than the US. They don't have the international clout. Sure China is a power, but its not as powerful as the US.

Now for the 2nd part. i don't know how many of you bleeding hearts have bothered to research the attitude of the Iraqi people other than what you hear on the news. I think that you'll find that the majority of Iraqis are happy that the US government kicked out Saddam. They may not be fully happy with the whole aftermath but as a general rule, they're happy. But stories like that don;t sell as well as A BAZILLION PEOPLE DEAD AFTER TERRORIST BLOWS HIMSELF UP!. Well hey look, people aren't being tortured for saying Saddam sucks. People aren't being slaughtered for thinking for themselves instead of Saddam. They're education is better now than what is was under Saddam. Saddam rules is not a valid education. But of course these things are always overlooked in favour of ZOMG PEOPLE DEAD BUSH SUCKS LOL!

Also... America wasn't the only one to believe that Iraq had WMD's. I could go through the whole list of countries including Canada before the war but that would nullify the whole argument of LOL AMERICA DIDNT FIND WMDS THEREFORE THEY SUX LOL! Because everyone else believed it too. Aint hindsight great? Real easy to criticise on hindsight. I didn't see anyone jumping up and down before Iraq about them not having WMD's.

[slight edit for the people that need things in hard print rather than implied]And you know what? I REALLY FUCKING HATE people that think Bush is somehow on par with Osama. FUCK YOU! He sits there and plots the deaths of innocent people because you were unfortunate to be born in a country that opposes his beliefs of the oppression of women, of totalitarian religious rule which is far stricter than anything you ever imagine. Would you like me to stone you for your opinion? If you support his actions go live with him, and I hope to God they find you and you end up at Camp Xray. and again FUCK YOU.

Finally. Bush has no control over what Al Jazeera releases, the Arab TV network that released the video for Osama. Conspiracy theories are cool yo, but not when they're baseless and make you look like a fucking retard.

PS This post made me angry... the Osama bit anyways. It just carries.

EDIT 2: After some time thinking about htis... I find its often best if I hold myself to my own values that I argue So... in retrospect, he has a right to his opinion. I just happen to think it's a really BAD one.

The Iraqi people may be happy that Saddam is gone, but that doesn't change the fact that they hate Bush and America. I'm not trying to be rude or anything but the Iraqi people in general do hate America and want the American army to leave. That's why America is LOSING the war in Iraq. Unless some other country steps up and helps out America will lose. I wasn't standing up for what Osama did any killing is awful, I was just saying you all say Osama is a terrorist for these reasons and Bush is killing people for the exact same reasons that you are claiming Osama to be a terrorist. Secondly, I didn't see anybody ask America to go into Iraq and help. That is a decision that Bush decided to make, and UN inspectors repeatedly told him that there were NO WMDS in Iraq, and he went in anyway. Most likely because he wanted revenge for his dad. Again never once did I say I supported what Osama was doing, just like I don't support what Bush is doing. Bush also sits there and plots the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Every person is innocent in war. The soldiers, the civilians, their all innocent people and if Bush is sitting there plotting ways to kill the soldiers even then he is still plotting the deaths of innocent people, same as Osama. All this war is one countries leader who doesn't like another countries leader. But each leader is too much of a coward to go and fight the other themselves, so they send a bunch of innocent people to go and fight each other instead. It's just like a fight at school. One kid gets mad, and goes after another kid, but they don't want to get hurt so they have their friends fight for them. If this is a war on terrorism, then why is still fighting in Iraq? He got Saddam so now were all safe from those WMDS that don't exist. But he left Osama because he couldn't win that game of hide and seek, and he needed to draw media attention awat from that, so he makes up some bullshit about WMD in Iraq and takes down Saddam. Then he looks like a big hero.

Rusty wrote:The Iraqi people may be happy that Saddam is gone, but that doesn't change the fact that they hate Bush and America. I'm not trying to be rude or anything but the Iraqi people in general do hate America and want the American army to leave. That's why America is LOSING the war in Iraq. Unless some other country steps up and helps out America will lose. I wasn't standing up for what Osama did any killing is awful, I was just saying you all say Osama is a terrorist for these reasons and Bush is killing people for the exact same reasons that you are claiming Osama to be a terrorist. Secondly, I didn't see anybody ask America to go into Iraq and help. That is a decision that Bush decided to make, and UN inspectors repeatedly told him that there were NO WMDS in Iraq, and he went in anyway. Most likely because he wanted revenge for his dad. Again never once did I say I supported what Osama was doing, just like I don't support what Bush is doing. Bush also sits there and plots the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Every person is innocent in war. The soldiers, the civilians, their all innocent people and if Bush is sitting there plotting ways to kill the soldiers even then he is still plotting the deaths of innocent people, same as Osama. All this war is one countries leader who doesn't like another countries leader. But each leader is too much of a coward to go and fight the other themselves, so they send a bunch of innocent people to go and fight each other instead. It's just like a fight at school. One kid gets mad, and goes after another kid, but they don't want to get hurt so they have their friends fight for them. If this is a war on terrorism, then why is still fighting in Iraq? He got Saddam so now were all safe from those WMDS that don't exist. But he left Osama because he couldn't win that game of hide and seek, and he needed to draw media attention awat from that, so he makes up some bullshit about WMD in Iraq and takes down Saddam. Then he looks like a big hero.

NO, the Iraqi people were happy with the American presence, But it would be pure folly for them to withdraw now. That would just leave 1 big mess. They know that, the world knows this... no they don;t want the American army out of there.

America is not losing the war in Iraq. However they are not winning it either. Its one of those crappy stalemates. After the upcoming assault on Fallujah, we will see where the whole thing stands.

Weapons inspectors didn't say squat because they were denied access to the sites that they most wanted to see. Saddam did this for 12 years. None of us can say to know how Bush was thinking... but I highly doubnt he charged into some horrid foreign policy befcause he wanted revenge for Dad. Dad didn't need revenge... dad should have finished the job in the first place.

Do you honestly think that Bush sits in his office and says... How many innocent Iraqi's can I kill today? BTW, over 70% of the military voted for Bush, to me thats an overwhelming vote of confidence by the people he's sending out there.

What a great way to solve foreign conflict. Why don't we pit Castro against Bush in a school yard brawl. We could even turn it into a wrestling match. George "The Texan Cowboy" Bush vs Saddam "The Dictator" Hussein.


He hasn't finished the hunt for Osama. Latest intel said they'd figured out which region he was in... but that could be horseshit. YOu guys fail to understand how hard it is to catch a fugitive in a crowded suburban neighbourhood let alone a remote foreign landscape. It really is like hunting for a needle in a haystack.

Finally, the war in Iraq continues becaue a) if they leave they'll leave the country in disarray and an unstable middle east.
b) the terrorists are still in Iraq. Have you guys forgotten about Zarqawi? He's the guy who has the group which goes around and beheads the guys who go over to make Iraq a better place. He has heavy links to Osama.

You know? here's the thing. I was 100% for the US going into afghanistan and taking out the taliban. I was 100% for them going after Bin Laden. I was 100% against Iraq. Here's why:

1) the WMDs. The US knew there were WMD's there at some point because they have the receipts. What happened to them after 1992 is unknown, but they sure aren't in Iraq. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and we now know they aren't there, but how can you go invade a country on intelligence such as "Saddam Hussein was attempting to get uranium from African suppliers" when it simply wasn't true. They had no proof of this when it was stated at the State of the Union address. If you want to attack a country that you feel is dangerous with a nuclear weapon, why did they go after North Korea, where they ADMITTED they were developing a nuclear weapon program.

2) The link between Al Qaeda and Saddam was non-existant. It's true. Bin Laden thought Saddam was "an infidel." There was no link, although Bush seemed to think so and was open about it, and still is.

3) Given that many members of the Taliban and other members of Al Qaeda were caught/killed, Bin Laden is still at large. I know they are still searching for him, but imagine what those 130,000 soldiers that were put in Iraq could have done in the search for Bin Laden. They could have held hands and walked from one end of the country to the other, and I'm sure Pakistan would have given them a hand as well. Bush wanted Bin Laden "dead or alive" and still there is no answer.

4) Bush wanted Iraq from day one. The day of 9/11, Bush and Rumsfeld wanted to go after Iraq. They were both told that it would be a bad move and that it would be best to go after Bin Laden until they can make a true case for Iraq, and try and develop a link. How can you think about attacking a country that had no part in the 9/11 attacks before the people who actually attacked you? That baffles me.

5) Why not Saudi Arabia? 19/20 hijackers were Saudis. The Saudi human rights record is just as bad, if not worse than Iraqs, but yet they remain great friends of the US administration.

6) I understand there were some horrible human rights violations in Iraw, but there are portions of the world that are ignored greatly. Sudan and the Darfur crisis is just one example. Zimbobwe is another. The problem is that in neither of those countries is there a natural resource that the US craves. You cannot tell me that there wasn't a bit of "let's finish the job dad couldn't do" when it came to Iraq.

7) The US administration should have asked themselves why no one was going to Iraq with them. Is it because every other country is a bunch of wimps, and only the US, England, Austrailia, and Poland are strong enough to fight? I certainly think not. If I was going into a fight I would ask myself why my friends were against me fighting.


That's a lot to digest I'm sure. I know a lot of it is arguments that I and others here put forward ages ago, but oh well, it is the major reason why Bush was re-elected, so it's worth discussion.

So I can see where everyone on the CM has been this post hasn't even been looked at yet and only 3 days ago everyone was going nuts about the election

wow this thread died quickly lol my above post still hasn't been looked at by anyone (I still have the option to delete it). I guess time heals all wounds eh?

Nope... I'm still majorly pissed off that he won... the posts just started getting too long and smart-like... and I just don't have the patience to read all that.

i am SO PISSED OFF at myself for missing this debate

oh man i want a piece of that korzic, and venom too.

OH MAN OH MAN.

Just so you guys know, Osama and the people that fight with him think it's a war on terrorism too, ISRAELI AND AMERICAN TERRORISM against the arabs.

They have in their own twisted minds just as much right to blow you up as you them.

and try and tell me that the notion that american war planes could torch your house "by accident" isn't just as damaging as the threat of a suicide bomber. if you don't support the new american century, YOU COULD BE NEXT.

For the last time, Osama isn't mad because americans are "free". He's mad because americans are BLOWING UP HIS COUNTRY. What about this concept seems so unreasonable to you? Seriously.

you guys have to face facts. killing is killing. it doesn't matter what uniform the killer is wearing. my goodness.

so in conclusion, both Bush and Osama are equally wrong. Didja hear that Korzic - i'm comparing the two. I suppose you want to tell me to fuck myself now.

I know this post sucks because i am worked up. But I just can't believe the way people look at reality and by the time their brain processes what they saw it's become something totally different.

I know the zionists have a reason for what they're doing, I know this because I actually respect my opponents position.

But you have to be aware that when the jews blow up palestine and america pays for it, that's going to piss people off. And that's going to make them feel justified in blowing up whoever they want.

What is the difference between an israeli bulldozer wacking a neighborhood of palestinians and a palestinian suicide bomber blowing up a coffee house? there is none other then the fact the Israel kills with expensive american made toys and Palestine kills with homemade bombs.

Do you understand? How mad were you americans when the towers went down? I know i was furious! This type of thing happens to palestine EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Mark my words: you want world peace? If everybody got off their high horse and stopped trying to think for others, and stopped saying "my country and my way is the best" we'd never have another war.

mosaik wrote:For the last time, Osama isn't mad because americans are "free". He's mad because americans are BLOWING UP HIS COUNTRY. What about this concept seems so unreasonable to you? Seriously.

we wern't blowing up his country before the towers. he's just pissed because he's no longer being funded by us and the Israelis are. he had no problem with us when we were fighting USSR together. Palestine isn't his country. you get mad, when we have a leader that is all for war, yet you want justice for a country who's leader was a gun runner? that seems unreasonable.

Corey wrote:No, a good example would be Quebec from Canada. Only without the horrible violence.

actually during a period there was violence: Bombings, kidnappings, murder. Of Course our PM acted swiftly, and then went on with normal life

mosaik wrote:i am SO PISSED OFF at myself for missing this debate

oh man i want a piece of that korzic, and venom too.

OH MAN OH MAN.

Just so you guys know, Osama and the people that fight with him think it's a war on terrorism too, ISRAELI AND AMERICAN TERRORISM against the arabs.

They have in their own twisted minds just as much right to blow you up as you them.

and try and tell me that the notion that american war planes could torch your house "by accident" isn't just as damaging as the threat of a suicide bomber. if you don't support the new american century, YOU COULD BE NEXT.

For the last time, Osama isn't mad because americans are "free". He's mad because americans are BLOWING UP HIS COUNTRY. What about this concept seems so unreasonable to you? Seriously.

you guys have to face facts. killing is killing. it doesn't matter what uniform the killer is wearing. my goodness.

so in conclusion, both Bush and Osama are equally wrong. Didja hear that Korzic - i'm comparing the two. I suppose you want to tell me to fuck myself now.

I know this post sucks because i am worked up. But I just can't believe the way people look at reality and by the time their brain processes what they saw it's become something totally different.

He said a lot of stuff. It made me laugh too. It was probably best that you missed the debate dude, then you wouldn't look like so much of a tool when trying to argue your position with an argument that has no basis.

1) Osama was born in Saudi Arabia. That makes Saudi Arabia his country, not Palestine.

2) Osama didn't object to the American's support in attempting to kick the USSR out of Afghanistan. He was all for it. YAY FREE GUNS etc.

3) America wasn't attacking anyone on August 7, 1998 when Al Quaeda tok a set of explosives to the US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya killing 258 people and wounding over 5000. That was Mr. Clinton's presidency, Not Bush.

4) On October 12, 2000. The US missile destroyer, the USS Cole was ram raided by an inflatable boat laden with explosives on a scheduled refueling stop in Yemen, this resulted in 17 deaths of US sailors.

5) In February 1988, Al Qaeda issued a fatwah under the name "the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders" saying that "to kill Americans and their allies, civilians and military, is an individual duty of every Muslim who is able." This was pre Bush Sr. years as president.

6) Madrid train bombings. Killed lots of people. This wasn't even directed against the US.

7) Other failed incidents include the attempt at bombing the USS Sullivans . This was widely regarded as a trail run for Cole. They put too many explosives in the boat and it sank. There was a plan to blow up LAX. The bomber was caught at the US/Canadian border with the bombs in his car. This was in late 1999. In early 2000, Jordanian authorities arrested 28 men in regards to an attempt to attack Israeli and US tourists visiting Jordan for Y2K celebrations. German police foiled a plot to destroy a cathedral in Strasbourg, France in December 2000. And last but not least, in Manila, Phillipines, an apartment fire exposed a plane to explode aircraft passenger liners midflight over the Pacific.

Please note the dates of these. ALL PRE GW BUSH YEARS. Since 1990. Gulf War 1 (Saddam invades Kuwait) Yugoslavia (ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Kosovo) Somalia (don't remember the exact circumstances, but I dont think there was plane bombings) Gulf War 2. There are all the major conflicts that the US has been involved in in the past 15 yrs. None of these have affected Osama directly at all. Despite trying to find another way to hate Bush, its baltently obvious that the terrorist attacks are because of him.

One last thing as Bandalero mentioned. Mr. Arafat was the leader of the PLO, you know that terrorist organisation like the IRA, adept at blowing people up, but then became a political party? Nice double standards.

***EDIT***

1 last point. Do you suppose that Israel would exist today, given who it is surrounded by. Palestine Syria Egypt Jordan etc. without US support and help?