Finally, a religion/anti-religion thread.

[Henrietta]

Deu 4:1,2 Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgements which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers is giving you.You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

The Mormon religion doesn't teach anything detracts or changes anything in the Bible. We do not say...no this commandment isn't right. Go ahead and sleep with your neighbor's wife. We only say PLEASE DO GOOD!

[Narbus]

We do believe ourselves to be Christian, because the basic definition of Christianity is to believe in Christ, which me most certainly do. I think the reason that the bigger churches say we are not Christian is because we don't look at the Godhead in the same light. God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are not the same person.

Acts 5
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

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Isaiah 43:10 "no God was formed before me, neither shall there be after."

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John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."

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Mark 2
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

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John 20
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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Matthew 14
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 28
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Exodus 20
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

They believe that God is once as we were. In other words, he had to have gone through a mortal life.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

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Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

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John 1:16-18, "And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

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1 Timothy 1:17, "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."

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1 Timothy 6:16, "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

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Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

We also believe that we can become Gods and Godesses.

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Isaiah 44
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

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1 Corinthians 8
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


I don't own those books, and they aren't quite as easy to find online, so I'll do what I can.
If SpclAgntCass cares to provide some quotes, then I'll be able to do more. Until then, here's what I can do.

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345).

This is refuted by the man verses up above, including, most prominently, Genesis, where God created the whole of the world, including man. How could God be as we once were and still create us?


"When the Virgin Mary conceived the Child Jesus.... He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is his Father? He is the first of the human family" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, pp. 50-51).

Refuted by:
Matt 1:18 "She was found with child by the Holy Spirit"




"Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Receiving the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands, Morality, Loyalty, Tithing, Word of Wisdom, Duty Celestial Marriage (for eternity)" Articles of Faith, No. 4
"No man who rejects the testimony of Joseph Smith can enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1 pg. 190).
"Men have work to do if they would obtain salvation" (Doctrines of Salvation. vol. 3, pg. 91).


Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast


Deu 4:1,2 Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgements which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers is giving you.You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.


Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

LOOK. CONTRADICTION, ADDITION, AND SUBTRACTION TO THE BIBLE.

PS: The idea that you can become as God is does violate the First Commandment.

[Corey]

What it a real Christian?

http://www.gospelcom.net/lpea/whatis2.shtml

[Narbus]

What it a real Christian?

http://www.gospelcom.net/lpea/whatis2.shtml

From that link:

First of all, the Bible says that a Christian is someone who has found the way of life rather than the way of death. That way to life is found in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). Notice that Jesus does not say he will show you the way. He says, "I am the way!"

Notice, also, that Christ says HE is the way. Not Christ AND the sacraments, or Christ AND good works, and it certainly doesn't say that you will become a God when you are saved. In fact, he says the opposite.
It doesn't change the fact that the Bible says God created the world, but the Mormons claim he lived in it first. It doesn't change the verses that forbid adding to the Bible.
The Bible is the Testament of Christ, and the foundation of Christianity. You cannot pick it apart, keeping what verses you like, and adding where you want and still have it be the Testament of Christ and the foundation of Christianity.
I'm not sure where you got this idea that Christianity is some nebulous form that you can pound and trim and add to until its whatever sect you want and have it still be Christianity. That doesn't work for anything else that I can think of, why does it for religion?

[Corey]

Ok, and where did I say that Mormons were Christians? Your argument is clearly that Mormons are not Christians. That's fine, I never contested that.

[Narbus]

When you jumped into the middle of this and said "Not all Christians believe that."

[Henrietta]

Ok, so which religions are Christians?

[Narbus]

Christians are Christians. I don't know what you're asking here.

[Henrietta]

Christianity isn't a religion. It's a catergory of relgions.

[Axtech]

Mormans are Christians with a different interpretation than what you're taking. You cannot say that they are right or that they are wrong, because interpretation is fluid.

[Henrietta]

[Corey]

When you jumped into the middle of this and said "Not all Christians believe that."

I wasn't talking about Mormons. I was merely talking about the ideas of heaven and hell which you did nothing more than say "You are wrong" as your evidence of how I was wrong.

[Narbus]

Christianity isn't a religion. It's a catergory of relgions.

No, it's a religion. A lot of people think it's a big catergory, but it's not.
The Bible is the Testament of Christ, and the foundation of Christianity. You cannot pick it apart, keeping what verses you like, and adding where you want and still have it be the Testament of Christ and the foundation of Christianity.
I'm not sure where you got this idea that Christianity is some nebulous form that you can pound and trim and add to until its whatever sect you want and have it still be Christianity. That doesn't work for anything else that I can think of, why does it for religion?

Mormans are Christians with a different interpretation than what you're taking. You cannot say that they are right or that they are wrong, because interpretation is fluid.

There are lines that are drawn, obviously, when "interpreting" things. If I were to say, "I like ice cream," would it work to interpret my statement to mean that I hate Courtney Love? No, of course not.
In the same way, when the Bible says that Christ is the only way to reach God, we can't stretch the meaning of that sentence through even the most generous interpretation to mean that there are other ways to God. "No one comes to the Father but through me." There's really only the one way to read that.
There's no way that has been shown to me ever that one can interpret the Bible to mean that a person can become as God is, or that God was once a mortal man, and so on.
You can stretch meanings of verse only so far before they break. When they do break, what is left is no longer Christianity.

[One-Eye]

Narbus, where do you get off thinking that your interpretation of the Bible is the One True Interpretation, and that only people who agree with your interpretation are True Christians™?

"No one comes to the Father but through me" could mean any number of things. It could mean that Jesus has to EAT people and pass them THROUGH HIM before they get to the Father. It could mean that Jesus is a bouncer at heaven's door. It could mean there is a person named Through Me that is the ONLY person who can get to the father. It could mean ANY NUMBER of things, depending on your interpretation. The same is true of the other verses you have quoted. So therefore, any group who bases their belief system on the teachings of Christ - in ANY interpretation - are Christians.

You can interpret Bible passages any way you like, but you are no authority on what the Bible "really means", if it really means anything at all.

[Narbus]

Narbus, where do you get off thinking that your interpretation of the Bible is the One True Interpretation, and that only people who agree with your interpretation are True Christians™?

Because I'm literate?

"No one comes to the Father but through me" could mean any number of things. It could mean that Jesus has to EAT people and pass them THROUGH HIM before they get to the Father. It could mean that Jesus is a bouncer at heaven's door. It could mean there is a person named Through Me that is the ONLY person who can get to the father. It could mean ANY NUMBER of things, depending on your interpretation. The same is true of the other verses you have quoted. So therefore, any group who bases their belief system on the teachings of Christ - in ANY interpretation - are Christians.

You can interpret Bible passages any way you like, but you are no authority on what the Bible "really means", if it really means anything at all.

Eat people? Someone named "through me?" Look, I'm assuming that if you want to know about religion then your reading level is above that of a three year old, mentally retarded, cross-eyed child.

By this logic, the fact that you posted "bouncer at heaven's door" CLEARLY means you're a prostitute working at a seedy New York bar who takes dirty martini's in lieu of cash. The only way you'd know the bouncer at heaven's door that well is if you work there, after all.

[One-Eye]

Lighten the fuck up.

[Narbus]

Well make at least a LITTLE bit of sense. Geez.

[Axtech]

Narbus... You said that there are lines that are drawn for interpretation. Such lines are drawn by the interpreter. If Mormans believe something outside of your lines of interpretation, so what? Who are you to say that they're wrong? You can quote the bible until the cows come home, but you can't prove who's right and who's wrong. No one can.

[Narbus]

Narbus... You said that there are lines that are drawn for interpretation. Such lines are drawn by the interpreter. If Mormans believe something outside of your lines of interpretation, so what? Who are you to say that they're wrong? You can quote the bible until the cows come home, but you can't prove who's right and who's wrong. No one can.

Rob, I'll say this once more.

The Bible is the foundation for Christianity. It is the wellspring from which Christianity flows. It is the source of the religion. It defines what the religion is. I CAN say that I'm right and they are wrong because of this.
And reading into a document, such as the Bible, and coming away with a message totally contradictory to what the Bible says is not interpretation. Such lines are drawn by the bounds of the language, not the interpreter.

If I write, "I like ice cream," could you take that to mean I want desperatly to shag Holly Marie Combs? No.
If I write, "I want desperatly to shag Holly Marie Combs," and someone reads that and says, "Hey, I should call the police, he hates Holly Marie Combs and is planning to kill her!" then would you say that person is correct and I should be arrested?

[happening fish]

I just found out that one of my good friends is a priest in the Mormon church