Finally, a religion/anti-religion thread.
Hey. Look who just figured out the biggest problem with Christianity, which usefully doubles as the primary reason I refuse to believe in it.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
It is. See Exodus, where God "hardened Pharoh's heart," essentially forcing the plauges upon the unsuspecting Egyptians, including that slaughter of every first-born, just to make the point "Don't fuck with God" especially clear.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
-
Henrietta
Gee. What about all those people in other countries who've never even heard of Jesus? Wow. God is such an asshole!
I agree. All those poor people he created who just never had a chance.
It is sad what happened to those people...not to mention other things God causes...but the world is evil. The message of repentance must be gotten across to the people.
Wow listen to me, I sound like Christianity and LDS's most faithful person. I guess this argument has shown me just how much I DO believe.
You.
Are.
Not.
Christian.
If you're going to claim to be, you could at least do so while actually standing up to my posts. No more of this, "well, um, LOOK A SEAGULL! *runs*" crap.
Christians believe that we are all sinners, and therefore all unworthy of God and Heaven, no matter how great our works, but faith in Jesus as our Savior allows for forgivness of our sins, and thus entrance into Heaven.
Mormons believe that works are what determines entrance into Heaven.
These ARE NOT THE SAME BELIEFS. Ergo, you are not Christian.
Are.
Not.
Christian.
If you're going to claim to be, you could at least do so while actually standing up to my posts. No more of this, "well, um, LOOK A SEAGULL! *runs*" crap.
Christians believe that we are all sinners, and therefore all unworthy of God and Heaven, no matter how great our works, but faith in Jesus as our Savior allows for forgivness of our sins, and thus entrance into Heaven.
Mormons believe that works are what determines entrance into Heaven.
These ARE NOT THE SAME BELIEFS. Ergo, you are not Christian.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
Too late, clearly.
If she'd actually, I dunno, respnnd to me, then things would be different. If she had any kind of argument at all against what I've been saying, then things might be different. It's this refusal to answer any questions at all crap that's annoying me into pushing this so far.
If she'd actually, I dunno, respnnd to me, then things would be different. If she had any kind of argument at all against what I've been saying, then things might be different. It's this refusal to answer any questions at all crap that's annoying me into pushing this so far.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
Because she's wrong. Isn't that enough? Why are you so tolerant of lies and deceptions? Seriously.
It bothers me that she claims to be mormon but I know more about her religion than she does. Me, a person who's closest spiritual label is agnostic, has done more research into her religion than she has, and she's apparently chosen to live the life of a Mormon. She makes this giant life-altering decision for no reason at all.
I spend all this time reading up on religions and faiths and all this crap and know more about it than she does and the best response to anything I say is "I cannot ezplain to EXACTLY how this works."
That's just ignorant. I honestly cannot believe that someone would want to live their life ignorant, especially in so important an area.
It bothers me that she claims to be mormon but I know more about her religion than she does. Me, a person who's closest spiritual label is agnostic, has done more research into her religion than she has, and she's apparently chosen to live the life of a Mormon. She makes this giant life-altering decision for no reason at all.
I spend all this time reading up on religions and faiths and all this crap and know more about it than she does and the best response to anything I say is "I cannot ezplain to EXACTLY how this works."
That's just ignorant. I honestly cannot believe that someone would want to live their life ignorant, especially in so important an area.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
But why is it any of your business to harass people about what they believe? I enjoy discussing religion and my views, but it's not my right to tell people that what they believe in is wrong. I've gotten enough of that from other people to know that it's rude and it's useless. She's not going to change her beliefs unless she chooses to. If she doesn't want to spend the time that you have researching different religions, that's her right and her business. You've made your point, so let's just move on.
this isn't about her beliefs. it's about semantics, really. i understand why narbus is frusterated because i get it all the time when you folks go around calling my rationalist philosophy irrational and not being able to back it up.
he wants her to admit that christian beliefs and mormon beliefs contradict each other. they do. whats the problem? he's not asking her to renounce her beliefs. he just wants her to acknowledge that he's got a point about the differences between her beliefs and christian beliefs.
he wants her to admit that christian beliefs and mormon beliefs contradict each other. they do. whats the problem? he's not asking her to renounce her beliefs. he just wants her to acknowledge that he's got a point about the differences between her beliefs and christian beliefs.
Exactly. All I want is for her to actually know what she is professing. If she does know, and still wants to be mormon, then more power to her. But this "Well, I have no idea what I believe, but you, who actually has looked into the relgion, are clearly wrong," stuff is what's so freaking frustrating.
If you're going to profess a belief, then know what you're professing. That's all I ask.
Aerin: Read. My. DAMN. Posts.
I am not wrong. If you really feel I am, then start showing me where.
If you're going to profess a belief, then know what you're professing. That's all I ask.
Aerin: Read. My. DAMN. Posts.
I am not wrong. If you really feel I am, then start showing me where.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
I showed you where over and over again. To be Christian, you've got to believe in Christ. Mormons and Catholics do. End. Of. Story.
Anyway, I believe in the validity of the Theory of Relativity, even though I don't understand all of it. I don't have a background in physics, nor do I really care to. For all I know, it could be a blatant lie. But I believe it's valid. Why? Because there are many people out there, scientists mostly, who understand it very well and could explain it in deep detail to me, and I trust that they know their stuff. If I had to be an expert in everything I "believed" in, I'd spend my entire life in a book.
Why is Cass any different? She knows she doesn't understand all of her religion, but she knows that there are people out there that do, and that could explain it to her if she needed/wanted them to. She hasn't memorized the tenants of the church or the Bible or the Book of Mormon, but she could find out if she wanted to. She trusts their validity like I trust the relativity theory's validity. You don't have to understand everything about something to believe in it.
Furthermore, you yourself have stated that you DON'T know much about the Mormon church, so why should she listen to you? I'm sure there are people in her family or in her church that have spent their lives studying the religion; if she wants to know more about it, is she going to go to the self-proclaimed agnostic on a message-board who admits to not knowing all that much about Mormonism, or to the minister that she's known her whole life and who has studied the faith extensively?
Even if you were right, Narbus, you can't expect her to take your word for it. Your obsession with getting her to "admit she's wrong" is completely fruitless.
Anyway, I believe in the validity of the Theory of Relativity, even though I don't understand all of it. I don't have a background in physics, nor do I really care to. For all I know, it could be a blatant lie. But I believe it's valid. Why? Because there are many people out there, scientists mostly, who understand it very well and could explain it in deep detail to me, and I trust that they know their stuff. If I had to be an expert in everything I "believed" in, I'd spend my entire life in a book.
Why is Cass any different? She knows she doesn't understand all of her religion, but she knows that there are people out there that do, and that could explain it to her if she needed/wanted them to. She hasn't memorized the tenants of the church or the Bible or the Book of Mormon, but she could find out if she wanted to. She trusts their validity like I trust the relativity theory's validity. You don't have to understand everything about something to believe in it.
Furthermore, you yourself have stated that you DON'T know much about the Mormon church, so why should she listen to you? I'm sure there are people in her family or in her church that have spent their lives studying the religion; if she wants to know more about it, is she going to go to the self-proclaimed agnostic on a message-board who admits to not knowing all that much about Mormonism, or to the minister that she's known her whole life and who has studied the faith extensively?
Even if you were right, Narbus, you can't expect her to take your word for it. Your obsession with getting her to "admit she's wrong" is completely fruitless.
Daiye Spa wrote:I showed you where over and over again. To be Christian, you've got to believe in Christ. Mormons and Catholics do. End. Of. Story.
NO. NONONONONO.
To be a Christian, biblically, you have to accept Jesus as your Savior and your only way to Heaven. Mormons do NOT. Neither do Catholics. Ergo.
They are faiths with hints of Christianity. They are not Christians.
Hell, Christianity has hints of Sumerian, Egyptian, and even more if you want to branch out into these sects. The great flood comes from the Epic of Gilgamesh (sumerian), the idea of a being being killed and resurrected is distinctly Egyptian (Osiris). But is Christianity Sumerian, or Egyptian? NO. It is it's own thing distinct from the others. In just the same way, Mormonism is not Christian. It is distinct.
Anyway, I believe in the validity of the Theory of Relativity, even though I don't understand all of it. I don't have a background in physics, nor do I really care to. For all I know, it could be a blatant lie. But I believe it's valid. Why? Because there are many people out there, scientists mostly, who understand it very well and could explain it in deep detail to me, and I trust that they know their stuff. If I had to be an expert in everything I "believed" in, I'd spend my entire life in a book.
And if someone comes around with tons of sources that directly contradict the theory of relativity, what would you do? Sit there and just say, "Well, um, TOO BAD. IT'S TRUE!" Because that's what's happening here.
Ignorant. So very.
Why is Cass any different? She knows she doesn't understand all of her religion, but she knows that there are people out there that do, and that could explain it to her if she needed/wanted them to. She hasn't memorized the tenants of the church or the Bible or the Book of Mormon, but she could find out if she wanted to. She trusts their validity like I trust the relativity theory's validity. You don't have to understand everything about something to believe in it.
But if someone presents information that throws what you believe back in your face, grinding in your heels, sticking your fingers in your ears, and saying, "No, no, no, LALALALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING!!!!" is not the way to go about it. Which is what's been happening here.
Furthermore, you yourself have stated that you DON'T know much about the Mormon church, so why should she listen to you? I'm sure there are people in her family or in her church that have spent their lives studying the religion; if she wants to know more about it, is she going to go to the self-proclaimed agnostic on a message-board who admits to not knowing all that much about Mormonism, or to the minister that she's known her whole life and who has studied the faith extensively?
But she's not. She's not going to a minister, or anyone, she's just saying "NO."
Even if you were right, Narbus, you can't expect her to take your word for it. Your obsession with getting her to "admit she's wrong" is completely fruitless.
Only because she's decided to play ostrich.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
Narbus, I share your disbelief in the Mormon religion. However, I haven't seen you present any proof that it's wrong, only that it contradicts the Bible, which you've admitted, also contradicts itself. Obviously, given the number of Christians in the world, contradictions are not a deterrent to faith.
Furthermore, you've taken on a very condescending attitude towards the whole thing, calling their prophets witches and so forth. Before you say "but they were witches," stop and think. If I used such a derogatory term about someone you held in high regard, would you listen to what I had to say? Not likely. To quote a cliche, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Whether you're right or wrong, if you want someone to listen to you, you've got to treat them with respect. Otherwise, they <i>will</i> say "LALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING!"
Finally, religion does not and never has listened to reason. That's just the way it is. I've talked sense to religious people until my face turned blue, and they've still just said that "God works in mysterious ways" and that I "just didn't understand". They're working from a different plane, one where reason is not all that important. Do I think this is a good thing? No. I think reason is a more valid mode of looking at the world. But I recognize that I am not ever going to convince religious people of that.
Save yourself some sanity and some keystrokes, because I can tell you now, she's never going to admit she's wrong.
Furthermore, you've taken on a very condescending attitude towards the whole thing, calling their prophets witches and so forth. Before you say "but they were witches," stop and think. If I used such a derogatory term about someone you held in high regard, would you listen to what I had to say? Not likely. To quote a cliche, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Whether you're right or wrong, if you want someone to listen to you, you've got to treat them with respect. Otherwise, they <i>will</i> say "LALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING!"
Finally, religion does not and never has listened to reason. That's just the way it is. I've talked sense to religious people until my face turned blue, and they've still just said that "God works in mysterious ways" and that I "just didn't understand". They're working from a different plane, one where reason is not all that important. Do I think this is a good thing? No. I think reason is a more valid mode of looking at the world. But I recognize that I am not ever going to convince religious people of that.
Save yourself some sanity and some keystrokes, because I can tell you now, she's never going to admit she's wrong.
contradictions exist in religion because they're illogical by nature. not much you can do about that. but we can be logical when discussing religons.
christianity and mormonism contradict eachother. therefore, they can't be the same religion.
Aerin, or Cass, or whoever, would you care to disprove that statement?
christianity and mormonism contradict eachother. therefore, they can't be the same religion.
Aerin, or Cass, or whoever, would you care to disprove that statement?
Narbus wrote:Acceptance of Christ as their Savior.
That's all.
Not all forms of Christianity believe that, however that is the case for most. There is one form where your destiny is chosen at birth. It doesn't matter what you do or what you believe because God has already chosen whether you are going to Hell or Heaven. Don't quote me on this, but I believe it is Lutheran.
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