9/11 Anniversary

Venom · Post by **Venom** » 9/23/2003, 6:29 am

The fact is EVERY country does stuff worth criticizing, but you never see that here because you're too focused on our country. Florida, ARizona, etc are always in the 100's during the summer and you don't see thousands of people dying here do you. No because the government tells people to stay inside as much as possible with air conditioning and gives symptoms of heat stroke, dehydration, etc. France did NOTHING! The heatwave wasn't just in France either. It was all over Europe and ONLY France had this bad of a problem.

InRepair79 · Post by **InRepair79** » 9/23/2003, 10:01 am

Bandalero wrote:it's not about oil, if it were, we would have taken out Venezuela while they were fighting amongst themselves.

I never said it was specifically about oil (and if I gave that impression...my fault). I only brought that up as an example of how some hawks might respond to claims that it was.

As for the Adbusters link, yes, the period at the end (meant for the sentence) needs to be removed.

And as for all of the other stuff you mentioned, that's all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that neither war was necessary, neither has improved things significantly, and that our govt.'s justification for the Iraq War is built upon lies. What I meant by "sickness" is the unceasing cycle of "they kill our people, so we kill theirs, so they kill ours, so we kill theirs" thinking. This has nothing to do with Old/New world thinking. Now, if you're trying to explain why the Middle Eastern World dislikes America, then, yeah, that's probably a valid theory.

Venom · Post by **Venom** » 9/23/2003, 10:26 am

How can you say neither war has accomplished anything??? You couldn't be farther from the truth. We have dozens of top AL-Qaeda agents in custody that have already spilled thier guts to attacks that have been averted and/or broken up. Kalid Mohammed himself was worth the effort. That guy has given us so much information. Also life in Afghanistan and Iraq is worlds better than it was before we took out thier governments. They can listen to music, wear what they want, and not live in fear. Did you not see the jubilation of the Iraqi's when that statue of Saddam came down. Did you not see the smiles on the Afghani women's faces after the Taliban ran like the cowards they are? Tell me again why this hasn't accomplished anything???

doug · Post by **doug** » 9/23/2003, 11:22 am

Venom wrote:Also life in Afghanistan and Iraq is worlds better than it was before we took out thier governments.

oh yeah?

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/092203G.shtml

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 306432.DTL

http://english.aljazeera.net/Articles/N ... ilians.htm

http://www.marinij.com/Stories/0,1413,2 ... 80,00.html

http://www.latimes.com/news/printeditio ... y?coll=la-

http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news1/london-times1.html

www.strike-the-root.com has links every damn day that directly contradict your report. Links from places like the san fransico gate or the la times. i suppose you have sources proving how much better life in iraq is since your godless army arrived and started killing everybody in sight.

reading your posts really gets my blood pressure up sometimes venom. it's shocking how much of the us governments fucking horse shit you swallow.

your army is fucking the iraqis over. they have done no good since the whole tragic affair started.

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 9/23/2003, 2:49 pm

So the war with Afghanistan was worth it? Just because we caught a few people from the Taliban, it was worth all the death? So, now that we caught them and have them in custody, where do we go from there? What else can we do about the Taliban? We take out a few high ranking officials, they promote through the ranks to replace the dead officials, terrorism still goes on, and we accomplish nothing. Sorry, I see no benefit from the war.

Venom · Post by **Venom** » 9/23/2003, 3:29 pm

Promoting through the ranks weakens the chain considerably. You can't promote forever. Its like promoting Privates in the army to Generals. How effective are those privates gonna be in that position??

Venom · Post by **Venom** » 9/23/2003, 3:43 pm

Unsure of who will shoot at them next, the U.S. forces have been involved in "friendly fire" attacks in which 10 civilians have been killed in the past two months.

Wow a whole 10 civilians in 2 months. I'd bet my bank account that Saddam killed more than that in a week when he was in power. Some of your links contradict you. Did you read them?? The troops on the ground have been attacked daily. The Iraqi people have been warned to stay clear of convoys, bases, etc. In one incident a car was trying to pass a convoy after 1. being told in the first place to stay away, 2. having the troops motion and fire warning shots and he still didn't back off. Doug those article prove nothing other than a few "accidents" have happened and as I said I KNOW more were killed in a week by Saddam than friendly fire incidents. Yes its tragic that a few GI's have trigger fingers, but they are being attacked daily and when someone doesn't heed a warning they run the risk of being shot. You make it out to seem like we are lining them up and executing them. Name me a condlict (any countries) where accidents like this didn't happen.

Ray · Post by **Ray** » 9/24/2003, 1:19 pm

Here's a question -- after shuffling the reasoning for the war against Iraq around when we were found out, it finally was for the "freedom of the Iraqi people".

Yet soldiers still patrol the streets, and now have to engage in urban warfare with people they've supposedly freed. How the fuck is this freedom? Do you see soldiers on the street in America? No. There's still no real self-governing Iraq, and the foundation isn't even really seeming to be made. Bush, in my opinion, seems to only be staying in Iraq because he didn't have the support he had towards Afghanistan -- we've left that country as a shell. He knows he has to try to fix it, but he's got such a military-minded administration around him that he's being told to keep troops in there. Cheney and Powell are claiming that it's not a good idea to try to let the people sort themselves a bit, to let the troops fall back, as other superpowers like China are saying we should do.

Venom, we haven't accomplished anything because now those smiling people live in poverty worse than they had before.

The problem with Israel's existence is because it's essentially racism. Why is it that a certain ethnic group needs to have a whole country just for them? That exposes them to attacks that will occur much more often, because now the country as a whole is essentially a target -- you hit anywhere, and it's a big deal. If the Jewish community wasn't clumped together as it was -- and have land removed from another country that never quite agreed to giving that land up -- the Israel-Palestine conflict wouldn't be such a big deal.

Instead, self-righteousness takes over the human mind, and you feel that you're superior in some way because of your bloodline or your ethnic heritage. Pride has people declaring themselves "Italian-Americans" or "African-Americans" instead of just Americans, and "I'm an Israeli" is just the same type of pride -- which is okay, but many many people are too up-in-arms about their heritage. The Arabs have the same problem. Both think they're better than the other, that they belong there.

And, well, they fight about it.

Perhaps the philosopher Hobbes was right with his dim view of human existence.

Corey · Post by **Corey** » 9/24/2003, 3:45 pm

Ray wrote:Yet soldiers still patrol the streets, and now have to engage in urban warfare with people they've supposedly freed. How the fuck is this freedom? Do you see soldiers on the street in America? No. There's still no real self-governing Iraq, and the foundation isn't even really seeming to be made. Bush, in my opinion, seems to only be staying in Iraq because he didn't have the support he had towards Afghanistan -- we've left that country as a shell. He knows he has to try to fix it, but he's got such a military-minded administration around him that he's being told to keep troops in there. Cheney and Powell are claiming that it's not a good idea to try to let the people sort themselves a bit, to let the troops fall back, as other superpowers like China are saying we should do.

I'm going to have to call you on this one. What do you suppose it was like in the US immediately after the Revolutionary war? You think it was all of a sudden fighting free? Why do you think we have the right to bear arms? It was originally there to protect our freedom from those who opposed it. And in a way we do still have soldiers among us ready to defend our freedom. It is ludicrous to assume that after defeating an evil regime that it will immediately become a peaceful state. Is that how Germany worked out? Is that how Japan worked out? The US had troops in those countries for YEARS before things turned around. Now with Iraq we expect complete results after MONTHS? There are polls out that say that most Iraqis are happy with the new government. The one thing they aren't happy with is they want COMPLETE control which they are not ready for. If the US pulled out now, they would be in much worse shape.

Venom · Post by **Venom** » 9/24/2003, 3:46 pm

Why do you people think this stuff happens overnight?? Doug complains that I listen to the media too much which makes no sense. The media criticizes Bush and the Iraq war because the media is 90% democrat. Its an election year and the more Bush bashing the better. Bottem line is that the US is accomplishing MORE in Iraq and a lot FASTER than in any reconstruction before. The US media, France, Germany, etc are screaming for an immediate handover to Iraqi people. A little history lesson for all of you "know it alls" out there. Take a guess at how long it took to establish a fully working German government free of outside support?? 8 YEARS!!!! No one complained then of our "occupation". Same goes for Japan and look that these countries today. Germany isn't a US puppet....they are against the US.... wrongfully so. Japan is a thriving country. You know what the best part about all this is.....we STILL have troops in those countries and no one complains!! You can't establish a successful government in 2 months much less fix all the stuff that doesn't work because Saddam spent all the country's money on his palaces, etc. You nay sayers just like to bitch and moan about everything. You think you could do so much better. Then why the hell aren't you running for President??? You post your BS media reports of friendly fire accidents like its this HUGE problem. The media blows every little incident WAY outta proportion. Yes its sad people die but if they heeded the warnings it wouldn't happen. Fact of the matter is we hear about EVERYTHING that can be considered bad that happens over there. We get more information on shootings from Iraq than our own country. A recent Gallup poll shows that 2/3 of Iraqis are in favor of what the Americans did and don't want them to leave before order is fully restored. Its a fact, look it up. You won't hear it on CNN though because they are too busy with the bombings and accidents to see the good that is being done. 1.5 million Afghans have returned to their homeland that left years ago because of the oppressive Taliban rulers. Not only that but people are immigrating from Iran because they want a taste of a democratic government they so strongly want in their own country. They demonstrate everyday in Tehran in opposition of the government. They do this even knowing they will be killed if caught. The government can't kill them all because they know that would give the US even more reason to come and take them out next. The US is doing the right thing and anyone (media, other countries) that says otherwise has alterier motives.

InRepair79 · Post by **InRepair79** » 9/26/2003, 8:40 am

Venom wrote:Doug complains that I listen to the media too much which makes no sense.

I'm getting awful tired of this "(fill in the blank) controls the media" crap. This claim, in particular, is bullshit. If the mainstream media is reporting a lot of stories involving U.S. soldiers being picked off by guerilla (sp?) fighters, that's because those kind of stories have "dramatic impact" right now, just like carefully cropped shots of Iraqi civilians "dancing and smiling" around a fallen statue of Sadaam did at another. If conservative leanings are currently fashionable (9/11 and the year that followed...ask no hard questions, guys), the media will be conservative for a week, if not, they won't. Besides, how can you say that the media is 90% Democrat when every radio talk show host on the air right now is a conservative, and, until just recently, the New York Times Best Seller List was a roll call of "Why Liberals are Destroying the World" type books? I love how Anne Coulter appears on eight television shows in one week to explain how liberals are never given air time. Irony, anyone?

Sufjan Stevens · Post by **Sufjan Stevens** » 9/26/2003, 9:42 am

That's nice, but no one is talking about that anymore.

InRepair79 · Post by **InRepair79** » 9/26/2003, 4:13 pm

I guess you just have more time on your hands than I do, Rufus.