1. I never professed to believe the Bible. A few pages back, I even stated that I'm not sure what I believe.
2. The fact that the Bible contains contradictory statements does not somehow make all the contradictions between the Bible and the Book of Mormon go away. If anything, the fact that they also profess some belief in the Bible adds contradictions to the mess, weakening their Church's stance even more.
3. The Bible says that the way to God is through Christ, and Christ alone. No other path will lead to the Kingdom of Heaven. But the Mormons say you have to do work, and tithe, and believe the teachings of the Book of Mormon, and be married, and all this other stuff. They don't look to Christ for their salvation, they look to the Church. They don't worship Christ, they worship the Church, by their own teachings.
4. You ignored Cass's attacks on me, and didn't call her out in the same manner.
Finally, a religion/anti-religion thread.
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Axtech
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Narbus wrote:4. You ignored Cass's attacks on me, and didn't call her out in the same manner.
Where did she attack you?
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Every now and then I fall out into open air just to feel the wind, rain and everything.
And though the hum and sway gets me down, I'll find the way to peace and openness.
"Robbo" - © Alex (happeningfish)...^5 ^5 v v
Every now and then I fall out into open air just to feel the wind, rain and everything.
And though the hum and sway gets me down, I'll find the way to peace and openness.
"Robbo" - © Alex (happeningfish)...^5 ^5 v v
I take a rather...liberal defintion of attacks. Pretty much any "This is how it is for no reason and you're just wrong wrong wrong" generally comes off as attack-y to me, since it's basically stating that my statement is wrong due to some quality of me, as a person.
This is all Cass has done thus far to reply to my posts.
You did, too.
"Ah, semantics. The most meaningless of sciences."
You called what I said meaningless, without actually bothering to bring up why. That seems attack-y to me.
This is all Cass has done thus far to reply to my posts.
You did, too.
"Ah, semantics. The most meaningless of sciences."
You called what I said meaningless, without actually bothering to bring up why. That seems attack-y to me.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
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Axtech
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That wasn't me. 
As for Cass, that's not what I would consider an attack. She wasn't attacking you at all. That's why she wasn't brought up.
As for Cass, that's not what I would consider an attack. She wasn't attacking you at all. That's why she wasn't brought up.
- -
Every now and then I fall out into open air just to feel the wind, rain and everything.
And though the hum and sway gets me down, I'll find the way to peace and openness.
"Robbo" - © Alex (happeningfish)...^5 ^5 v v
Every now and then I fall out into open air just to feel the wind, rain and everything.
And though the hum and sway gets me down, I'll find the way to peace and openness.
"Robbo" - © Alex (happeningfish)...^5 ^5 v v
Hey, that wasn't you. Damn on me.
Like I said. I have a rather liberal definition of the word, and Cass did claim that I was just "afraid and bitter" which is much more traditional an attack, btw.
Like I said. I have a rather liberal definition of the word, and Cass did claim that I was just "afraid and bitter" which is much more traditional an attack, btw.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
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Axtech
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Well, yeah. That's pretty attackish.
Meh. Let's get on with the debate. Sans-attack on all of our accounts.
Meh. Let's get on with the debate. Sans-attack on all of our accounts.
- -
Every now and then I fall out into open air just to feel the wind, rain and everything.
And though the hum and sway gets me down, I'll find the way to peace and openness.
"Robbo" - © Alex (happeningfish)...^5 ^5 v v
Every now and then I fall out into open air just to feel the wind, rain and everything.
And though the hum and sway gets me down, I'll find the way to peace and openness.
"Robbo" - © Alex (happeningfish)...^5 ^5 v v
Narbus wrote:You did, too.
"Ah, semantics. The most meaningless of sciences."
You called what I said meaningless, without actually bothering to bring up why. That seems attack-y to me.
How does my low opinion of semantics have anything to do with attacking you? I'm sorry if you were offended, but it wasn't intentional.
As for why I think semantics is meaningless, it's because language was made up by humans and is completely unrelated to the real world. This debate is, in my opinion, meaningless because we're essentially arguing what it means to be Christian, which is just a word. If I convinced enough people that "Christian" meant "flying purple death-beetle", then who's to say that's not what it means? If "Christian" means to you "a person who follows the Bible and no other books", fine. All I've been saying is that the agreed-upon definition of a Christian is merely a person who professes a belief in Jesus Christ. It doesn't mention technicalities like what books they consider scripture. Mormons differ from other Christian sects in certain ways, but that doesn't make them nonchristians. They believe in Jesus Christ, and that's all they need to fit the definition.
Words are symbols for things in the real world.
I don't care about the word itself, I care about what it represents. "A rose by any other name" and all that.
In this case, you could call someone who believes in the Christ of the Bible a "flying purple death-beetle," and I'd still argue the same.
I don't care about the word itself, I care about what it represents. "A rose by any other name" and all that.
In this case, you could call someone who believes in the Christ of the Bible a "flying purple death-beetle," and I'd still argue the same.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
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Henrietta
Narbus, when did I attack you? You said yourself you didn't know what you believe. When I said that I don't understand why other Christian religions won't accept us, and are bitter I don't understand the reason, I CLEARLY put two lines between the rest of my message. I was really just making a generalization about people in general, not referring to you. I'm sorry if that isn't clear enough and I'll space a few more in the future. Really, all I was trying to do was bring up another point of argument, since I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine. By the way, when I reply, I'm talking to EVERYONE, not just you, unless I say otherwise. So by my saying I cannot refute you with exact quotes and other such things, I wasn't being "attack-y" because I was talking to everyone. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Back to the subject, one point I wanted to say about your argument: who IS Christian then, if Mormons and Catholics are not? ONLY people who believe in the Bible and nothing else? Who profess no reall affiliation with any church? Like Aerin says, I think we are losing sight of the definition.
One other point...did prophets in the Bible not use "tools" to aid them?
Back to the subject, one point I wanted to say about your argument: who IS Christian then, if Mormons and Catholics are not? ONLY people who believe in the Bible and nothing else? Who profess no reall affiliation with any church? Like Aerin says, I think we are losing sight of the definition.
One other point...did prophets in the Bible not use "tools" to aid them?
So far as I know, the prophets in the Bible relied only on God's power, no occult tools were used.
Moses needed no stone to turn the rivers to blood, no divining rod to bring forth the locusts. God's will did these things.
Joshua didn't need folk magic to bring down the walls of Jericho, God did it for him.
Talismans of occult gods like Jupiter hardly count as God's will.
And yes, if you believe that Jesus is the one, and only, way to heaven, then you are a Christian. Otherwise, you're Catholic, or Mormon, or whatever else.
Moses needed no stone to turn the rivers to blood, no divining rod to bring forth the locusts. God's will did these things.
Joshua didn't need folk magic to bring down the walls of Jericho, God did it for him.
Talismans of occult gods like Jupiter hardly count as God's will.
And yes, if you believe that Jesus is the one, and only, way to heaven, then you are a Christian. Otherwise, you're Catholic, or Mormon, or whatever else.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
-
Henrietta
Narbus-I wouldn't say that if you don't believe Jesus is the only way to heaven then you automatically just fall into the Mormon or Catholic catergory. That's a little far fetched.
Mormons do believe that the only way to heaven is Jesus. We just have a few conditions. If you believe in him, then you are not just automatically "saved". What if you go and kill someone after that? Seems a little odd to have the commandments telling you what to do, and what not to do, and then you are just automatically forgiven if you believe in Christ. You have to believe him, and do his works to get to "heaven".
Mormons do believe that the only way to heaven is Jesus. We just have a few conditions. If you believe in him, then you are not just automatically "saved". What if you go and kill someone after that? Seems a little odd to have the commandments telling you what to do, and what not to do, and then you are just automatically forgiven if you believe in Christ. You have to believe him, and do his works to get to "heaven".
SpclAgntCass wrote:Narbus-I wouldn't say that if you don't believe Jesus is the only way to heaven then you automatically just fall into the Mormon or Catholic catergory. That's a little far fetched.
Hence the "whatever else."
Mormons do believe that the only way to heaven is Jesus. We just have a few conditions. If you believe in him, then you are not just automatically "saved". What if you go and kill someone after that? Seems a little odd to have the commandments telling you what to do, and what not to do, and then you are just automatically forgiven if you believe in Christ. You have to believe him, and do his works to get to "heaven".
That's the point of the Bible, though. We are all sinners.
Rom.3:10
"There is none righteous, no, not one."
If you kill someone, you're a sinner, same as if you steal, lie, swear, or anything else. It's not the nature of the sin, it's the fact of it. Any sin, however minor, is a taint, and leaves us unworthy of God's presence. That's the whole point.
Even after accepting Christ, we sin. We get angry, we curse, whatever. Accepting Christ doesn't mean a person doesn't sin anymore, it doesn't make them perfect. It makes them forgiven, which is all that counts.
There is no "work" that a person can do to make up for this. If there were, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die.
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; No man cometh unto the father, but by me."
According to Joe Smith, you come to Heaven by Christ AND marriage, AND tithing, AND works, and all that. Not what the Bible teaches.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
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joe_canadian
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this is a tangent, but has anyone heard of the Christidelphians? they believe that no matter who you are, or what you believe, if you're not part of their specific church, you're damned. if you're Christian, but not Christidelphian, you're damned.
no real point to this post, just another interesting tidbit on the wild world of religions.
no real point to this post, just another interesting tidbit on the wild world of religions.
Just because I am sexy, naked, a bassist, and sporting a top hat doesn't make me Duncan Coutts!
There's also a buddist sect out there that, once a year, believes it is very necessary to get incredibly high, and stay that way all day long.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
The Christian church was started by the apostles after Jesus' death, and was not based on any books or on any scriptures. Only on his teachings. The books of the Bible were written at least 30 years after Jesus' death, and there still isn't consensus on what books are scripture and what books aren't. The Bible isn't some holy gift sent down by God all in one piece. It is a collection of works that is still being edited and argued over. Some people believe certain books belong in the Bible, others believe otherwise. None of this has anything to do with the meaning of being Christian.
Would you say, Narbus, that the Apostles weren't Christians because they didn't follow the teachings of this or that part of the Bible? There wasn't a Bible at the time. And there's no basis for any person to objectively categorize scriptures: these are right, these are wrong, if you believe these, you're a Christian, if you believe these you aren't. There's nothing behind that kind of argument but opinion.
Looking at things objectively, if a person believes in Jesus, then they are a Christian.
Furthermore, it's absurd to say Catholics aren't Christians, because in truth, the Apocrypha were in the Bible to begin with, and were taken out of Protestant Bibles in the 1500s. The Catholic church is the only one that descends straight from the Apostles, without breaking off. So to say that Catholics aren't really Christians because they believe in books that are different than the Protestants do is absurd. If you're going to make arguments like that, it's the <i>Catholics</i> who are the true Christians; they and their Bible were around first.
But of course, none of that has anything to do with anything. What matters is that what you're saying is something like this: We're trying to figure out whether ice cream is a dairy product, and your argument says, "Well, we all know that milk is a dairy product, and ice cream is different from milk in this, this, and this way, so obviously ice cream isn't a dairy product." All I'm saying is: Look at the definition of a dairy product. Compare ice cream to that definition, and you will have your answer.
Mormons believe in Christ. Ergo, they are <b>Christ</b>ians.
Would you say, Narbus, that the Apostles weren't Christians because they didn't follow the teachings of this or that part of the Bible? There wasn't a Bible at the time. And there's no basis for any person to objectively categorize scriptures: these are right, these are wrong, if you believe these, you're a Christian, if you believe these you aren't. There's nothing behind that kind of argument but opinion.
Looking at things objectively, if a person believes in Jesus, then they are a Christian.
Furthermore, it's absurd to say Catholics aren't Christians, because in truth, the Apocrypha were in the Bible to begin with, and were taken out of Protestant Bibles in the 1500s. The Catholic church is the only one that descends straight from the Apostles, without breaking off. So to say that Catholics aren't really Christians because they believe in books that are different than the Protestants do is absurd. If you're going to make arguments like that, it's the <i>Catholics</i> who are the true Christians; they and their Bible were around first.
But of course, none of that has anything to do with anything. What matters is that what you're saying is something like this: We're trying to figure out whether ice cream is a dairy product, and your argument says, "Well, we all know that milk is a dairy product, and ice cream is different from milk in this, this, and this way, so obviously ice cream isn't a dairy product." All I'm saying is: Look at the definition of a dairy product. Compare ice cream to that definition, and you will have your answer.
Mormons believe in Christ. Ergo, they are <b>Christ</b>ians.
The Apostles were Christians because they believed in Jesus and accepted him as their Savior.
The Mormon Church says that you have to do all this other stuff, too, which is not Biblical. They believe that Christ alone is not the way to Salvation.
PS: False analogy, on your part. I'm trying to work up an appropriate analogy. Gimme a minute or two.
The Mormon Church says that you have to do all this other stuff, too, which is not Biblical. They believe that Christ alone is not the way to Salvation.
PS: False analogy, on your part. I'm trying to work up an appropriate analogy. Gimme a minute or two.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
Ok. Here we go.
Christianity is the "dairy" family.
Mormons would be like fettucini alfredo. They USE dairy while making them, but they've just tacked on a lot of other stuff, so much that they can' t be called dairy anymore. They've gone beyond the boundaries of what we call dairy.
yeah. That works. Yeah.
Christianity is the "dairy" family.
Mormons would be like fettucini alfredo. They USE dairy while making them, but they've just tacked on a lot of other stuff, so much that they can' t be called dairy anymore. They've gone beyond the boundaries of what we call dairy.
yeah. That works. Yeah.
You can't go around building a better world for people. Only people can build a better world for people. Otherwise it's just a cage.
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
--Terry Pratchett
When it's cold I'd like to die
Narbus. The definition of being a Christian doesn't <i>say</i> you have to <i>only</i> believe in Jesus and accept him as savior. It just says you have to believe in him. Mormons, Catholics, Protestants, Southern Baptists, Gnostics, Unitarians, Seventh-Day Adventists, Jesus Freaks, they <i>all</i> fit the definition. Your skirting of the issue is beginning to annoy me.