Finally, a religion/anti-religion thread.

[Narbus]

Dear Cass:
The KJV translation has existed for quite some time, yes. But there are still originals out there that are compared to the "current" KJV, and guess what? They're the same.
Also, you haven't provided any of these errors. What translation errors are there? We still have the original manuscripts the Bible was translated from, it should be easy.

But for now let's look at the Book of Mormon. How accurate is it?
For the laypeople in the audience, a brief history of the Book of Mormon. Joeseph Smith, a witch (used folk magic and "seer stones" to find treasure), was given golden tablets by an angel upon which was writing in Reformed Egyptian Hieroglyphics, an hitherto non-existant language. The angel gave Joseph magical glasses which allowed him to translate the tablets directly into English.
Now, since the glasses were, supposedly, given by God, then shouldn't Joeseph's initial translation be perfect? Let's find out.

Original, 1830 text (note: The 1830 text didn't have verse divisions, hence the page numbers)
1 Nephi 3, p. 25 And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh
Current text:
1 Nephi 11:18 And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God.


Original:
1 Nephi 3, p. 25 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, even the Eternal Father!
Current:
1 Nephi 11:21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, even the Son of the Eternal Father


Original:
Mosiah 9, p. 200 … King Benjamin had a gift from God, whereby he could interpret such engravings …
Current:
Mosiah 21:28 … King Mosiah had a gift from God, whereby he could interpret such engravings …


Original:
2 Nephi 8, p. 87 … and the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself not
Current:
2 Nephi 8, p. 87 … and the mean man boweth not down, and the great man humbleth himself not


Original:
1 Nephi 5, p. 52 … O house of Jacob, which are called out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the Lord …
Current:
1 Nephi 20:1 … O house of Jacob, which are called out of the waters of Judah, or out of the waters of baptism, which swear by the name of the Lord …

If you'd like to see some more inaccuracies in the Book of Mormon, including full page scans of the original, in case you doubted the authenticity, click here.

Yes, that's a VERY accurate book you have on your hands, Cass.

Jesus Christ is the son of God. His only begotten. You are contradicting yourself if you say that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God are one. Because of Jesus Christ came to earth to die for our sins, and the atonement really happened, then in essence, God DID come to Earth. Right? Y

I don't say the three are one, the Bible does.
Also, coming from you, this is a blasphemous paragraph. "Every person who was ever born on earth was our spirit brother or sister in heaven. The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ "(D&C 93:21)
Note that this does imply Jesus and Satan are brothers. But the Bible says Jesus created everything, including Satan. So.

You can quote your heart out from the Bible, but until you read the actual Book of Mormon, then you can't really contradict anything cause you are only going up against a very imperfect member of the church. If you want the details, you ought to talk to missionaries.

No, try again. You stated what you believe. You stated what your mother says you believe. I can go to any number of websites and find that this is what you believe.

I shot it all down. All of it. If "Well, I just don't know" is the best you, as a mormon, can do, then I suggest you are the one who needs to be speaking to the missionaries.

[mosaik]

sorry to but in, but Narbus, what side exactly are you taking?

and could you clarify exactly what you two are arguing? i'm having a tough time following.

[Narbus]

I'm arguing that Mormons are not Christians. The argument is whether or not Mormons are Christians.

Hint: They aren't.

[mosaik]

i see.

you're saying they aren't because their respective religious texts contradict one another?

don't they both worship the same god though?

[One-Eye]

And I'm arguing that it's all semantics, since it depends on how you define "Christian". The dictionary says "Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus," and it seems to me that Mormons fit the description. Just because they differ in their beliefs from other sects doesn't mean they're not Christians.

[mosaik]

meh. here's a good one for the believers.

prove i'm not God.

plz. thx.

[One-Eye]

Doug, you're not God because <i>I</i> am God, and I said so.

[Narbus]

Doug: Basically, yes. The Bible is the source of the Christian religion. The Book of Mormon directly contradicts it. Ergo...

Aerin: Not quite. Mormons base their religion on the Bible. They believe that the Bible is mistranslated, and that why they need the new Gospel that is the Book of Mormon. But, the Book of Mormon contains 27,000 words from the King James Bible. Hundreds of verses are copied verbatim. For example, II Nephi, chapters 12-24 are copied from Isaiah 2-14, III Nephi 24 & 25 are copied from Malachi 3 & 4, and I Nephi 20-21 are copied from Isaiah 48-49 except for a few additions in the Book of Mormon. Even the italicized words from the King James Version are copied! The words in the King James Version were NOT in the original text but were added by the translators to give clarity of thought.

So, the Bible is mistranslated, but we're gonna copy it down and use it anyway.

Right.

PS: Doug, you aren't God because if you were, you'd know exactly what I think Natalie Imbruglia, Jewel, a few mangos, two quarts of Baby Oil and a pair of handcuffs all add up to, and you'd have struck me down long, long ago.

[Henrietta]

Joseph Smith was a witch? LMAO...right. More commonly called: prophet. Those glasses were not "magical", they were blessed by God. And just because God created the Earth does not mean we are not brothers and sisters to Jesus. We are. Not every member of the church quotes scripture, like you do so well. I can't. I'm not going to try. But I do know what we believe. And we believe we are Christian. Christianity is based on the Bible, and where in the Bible does it say that Mormons are not Christian? We believe in the Bible. We just interpret it differently, obviously, than Catholics or other such Christian relgions.

The "original" Christian relgions refuse to say that we are Christian. I wonder what they are so afraid of. Why must they be so bitter?

[Neil]

I cannot lend a very good statement to this thread, because my background in religion at ALL is very weak.

The media can have a hail-fire with that someday....me thinks.

[One-Eye]

Narbus, there are a couple of problems with your argument. First off, you're focusing on points where the Bible and the Book of Mormon contradict each other. Fine. But you must also recognize that the Bible contradicts itself in numerous places as well. What does that mean? That all Christians are hypocrites?

Furthermore, as I understand it, the LDSs believe that the Book of Mormon isn't a replacement for the Bible, but a companion to it. That it is part of the holy scripture along with all the other books in the Bible. If that makes them nonchristians, then what about the Catholics, for instance? Ever heard of the Apocrypha? It's a set of books that appear only in Catholic Bibles, for what appear to be technical, pseudopolitical reasons. But Catholics still swear that their inclusion is necessary, and Protestants claim they're heresy. Does this mean that Catholics, too, aren't "real" Christians, simply because they believe in disputed scriptures?

Finally, you ended your argument with

No, try again. You stated what you believe. You stated what your mother says you believe. I can go to any number of websites and find that this is what you believe.

I shot it all down. All of it. If "Well, I just don't know" is the best you, as a mormon, can do, then I suggest you are the one who needs to be speaking to the missionaries.

Hmmm, personal attacks and assumptions. A sign of weakness in any debate. Let the facts back you up, if they will, not your personal prejudices.

[Narbus]

Joseph Smith was a witch? LMAO...right. More commonly called: prophet.

Really. Then explain the fact that he used seeing stones and divining rods, and was tried and found gulity of such. He practiced witchcraft. And it wasn't somethign that stopped when he founded his church. When he was executed, an occult talisman was found on his person.

Those glasses were not "magical", they were blessed by God. And just because God created the Earth does not mean we are not brothers and sisters to Jesus. We are.

So, if God created the Earth, where did he live his mortal life? You believe that God was a mortal before ascending to diety, where did this happen?

Not every member of the church quotes scripture, like you do so well. I can't. I'm not going to try. But I do know what we believe.

I posted directly from the teachings of your church, and I posted directly from the Bible in refuting those teachings. I also posted exact quotes from you concerning what you believe, and I posted directly from the Bible chapter and verse refuting those beliefs.

And we believe we are Christian.

And I posted several pages of Biblical evidence to the contrary. Evidence you refuse to address.

Christianity is based on the Bible, and where in the Bible does it say that Mormons are not Christian?

In any of the two dozen or so Biblical quotes that I just posted it says that.

We believe in the Bible. We just interpret it differently, obviously, than Catholics or other such Christian relgions.

No, you don't believe in the Bible. Obviously. Read the above quotes. I mean it.

The "original" Christian relgions refuse to say that we are Christian. I wonder what they are so afraid of. Why must they be so bitter?

Personal attack. Proves nothing. I am not afraid, I am not bitter, I am still refuting your Church.

Narbus, there are a couple of problems with your argument. First off, you're focusing on points where the Bible and the Book of Mormon contradict each other. Fine. But you must also recognize that the Bible contradicts itself in numerous places as well. What does that mean? That all Christians are hypocrites?

This has what to do with anything at all?

Furthermore, as I understand it, the LDSs believe that the Book of Mormon isn't a replacement for the Bible, but a companion to it.

If I had a companion to a science text that refuted all claims in that science text, does that mean that it's fine to believe both? No. Clearly one is false. If the companion book claims to be based on the science text, then the companion book is clearly false.

That it is part of the holy scripture along with all the other books in the Bible. If that makes them nonchristians, then what about the Catholics, for instance? Ever heard of the Apocrypha? It's a set of books that appear only in Catholic Bibles, for what appear to be technical, pseudopolitical reasons. But Catholics still swear that their inclusion is necessary, and Protestants claim they're heresy. Does this mean that Catholics, too, aren't "real" Christians, simply because they believe in disputed scriptures?

Actually, there are a lot of Christians who believe that Catholism is not a Christian religion, and for many of the same reasons as Mormons aren't Christians.

Hmmm, personal attacks and assumptions. A sign of weakness in any debate. Let the facts back you up, if they will, not your personal prejudices.

The facts DO back me up. They're right up there, in plain english.

Here's what mormons believe.

Here's what the Bible teaches.

They're not the same, so that means...?


PS: I also love how personal attacks against me are just fine and dandy in your book, and in no way weaken the arguments of anyone else. Well played.

[Neil]

omg narbus ya wrote your intro to a book

[Axtech]

Narbus, calm down. This is a debate. Bring up points. Back up your points with evidence. Leave out the personal attacks.

[Narbus]

I DID BRING UP POINTS. I BROUGHT UP PAGES AND PAGES AND AN INTRO TO A BOOK (tm clumsy_congressman) WORTH OF POINTS.

They're right there. No one is paying attention to them. They just look at them and say, "Well, um...I don't know, but YOU'RE WRONG FOR NO REASON. BECAUSE I SAID SO."


It's rather frustrating.

[Axtech]

Yes, they are looking at the points.

MY point is that you need to leave the personal attacks out of it.

[Neil]

whoh......i'm sorry for throwing in the joke cuz I actually didn't read what all narbus had typed, i just saw that it was a lot

my bad...

[Narbus]

No, no, that's okay. It was funny. I likey.

Axtech: No, they aren't. Cass in particular. I pull up all that stuff where the Bible and the Book of Mormon contradict each other, and the best she can provide is, (and this is a direct quote, not an attack) "I cannot ezplain to EXACTLY how this works."

I go to lengths to look up verses, and quote them directly, and then I get "you must be afraid and bitter."


Yes, they are ignoring my points.

[Axtech]

Okay. That aside, please leave the personal attacks out. People tend to ignore good points when such attacks are present.

Now, on to the debate...

Religious belief is fluid. Everything can be interpreted differently.

Now, being an atheist, I can easily argue against any of the points brought up. But unless I can be assured that I'm not just going to get replies filled with condecending "oh ye of little faith" type comments, I won't.

[One-Eye]

I am not ignoring your points, Narbus. I recognize your statements' validity. I just don't think what you're saying has any bearing on whether or not Mormons are Christians. Yes, the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible in parts. But you completely glossed over my point that the BIBLE contradicts ITSELF in numerous places. So how can you use an argument that it isn't okay for the Book of Mormon to contradict Biblical passages, but it's fine and dandy and "This has what to do with anything at all?" for the other books in the Bible to contradict each other?

Furthermore, you're mistaking the definition of the very word you're arguing about. You started this semantics debate, so don't back away from it now. Christian means, and I quote the American Heritage Dictionary, "Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus." The Church of Latter Day Saints fits this definition. End of story.

P.S. Where have you been personally attacked? I've attacked your arguments, not your belief system, and not you personally. If you feel otherwise, please point it out.