AnnieDreams wrote:Raine wasn't always a mediocre singer, right? 'Cause otherwise I'm gonna be sad.
There's a difference between being a good singer and good vocalist. Raine's vocals during those first four albums ain't going to win any contests. It's not pure. It's high and squeally at times, and at others just really out of control. I love it. But that doesn't mean it's the best singing voice.
Let's put it this way. Raine goes on American Idol now or 10 years ago. He'd advance now, but not 10 years ago.
Trustworthy wrote:you know what? i used to get all passionate about music and what people thought of a band i liked or what i thought of a band didnt like etc.
then i was in a band and I realized who cares? i was doing what i wanted to do and that pretty much kicked ass! the best kind of ass to kick actually - anyways, i finally realized that no matter what anyone said, they still came and watched me play, they still talked about me and they still cared
and that is when i realized what it all means* - In short, like it or not, if you talk about it, well it did its job
*you can find more information from my upcoming book titled " mr trustworthy, a life with our lady peace"
So you're saying that Nickelback is doing its job? If I critique music, I'm going to be honest. And Nickelback sucks. They clearly don't care, and that's great for them. But they still suck.
At least Nickelback has it going for them that they've ALWAYS sucked... well... I GUESS they have that going for them?? OLP, on the other hand, can make some effing amazing music and we know it.
AnnieDreams wrote:Raine wasn't always a mediocre singer, right? 'Cause otherwise I'm gonna be sad.
There's a difference between being a good singer and good vocalist. Raine's vocals during those first four albums ain't going to win any contests. It's not pure. It's high and squeally at times, and at others just really out of control. I love it. But that doesn't mean it's the best singing voice.
Let's put it this way. Raine goes on American Idol now or 10 years ago. He'd advance now, but not 10 years ago.
Honey, I know what it means to be a good singer It's not particularly pure these days either. He slides off half his notes (particularly in AYD and Monkey Brains) and doesn't seem to know what he's doing with his air at all. I'm listening to Refuge at this moment, and every third word or so I feel the need to correct his technique. He's not very controlled.
I know the way Raine sang before wasn't "correct" per say, but those were stylistic choices for the most part and went with the bands aesthetic. Even if he was whiny or nasally, it sounded to me like he had a lot more control. He's right on the notes, and managed jumps and complicated vocal lines with grace a precision most of the time. I mean, have you ever tried singing Annie? I'm a chick and I'd find that difficult. He pulls it off near flawlessly. The choruses of WTS and Apology are no walk in the park either (Although, admittedly, he could really do to lighten up there).
He sings much more conventionally now, but that serves to draw more attention to what he's doing wrong (not singing on the right vowel, pushing and singing too heavily, falling off the ends of phrases instead of keeping his air moving, etc). I would much rather he stuck with the methods he was good at. If he's going to abandon his unique style for normal singing, he needs to learn to do it properly.
-Annie (Whee! boring signature!)
Member of the Pokémon League
Agreed 100% with the "falling off the end of phrases" thing. He sings like he's "singing along" to a song that was already recorded by someone else. He's lost that flow to his voice, I feel like I could easily reach better notes than he can in the Burn Burn music.
AnnieDreams wrote:Raine wasn't always a mediocre singer, right? 'Cause otherwise I'm gonna be sad.
There's a difference between being a good singer and good vocalist. Raine's vocals during those first four albums ain't going to win any contests. It's not pure. It's high and squeally at times, and at others just really out of control. I love it. But that doesn't mean it's the best singing voice.
Let's put it this way. Raine goes on American Idol now or 10 years ago. He'd advance now, but not 10 years ago.
Honey, I know what it means to be a good singer It's not particularly pure these days either. He slides off half his notes (particularly in AYD and Monkey Brains) and doesn't seem to know what he's doing with his air at all. I'm listening to Refuge at this moment, and every third word or so I feel the need to correct his technique. He's not very controlled. I know the way Raine sang before wasn't "correct" per say, but those were stylistic choices for the most part and went with the bands aesthetic. Even if he was whiny or nasally, it sounded to me like he had a lot more control. He's right on the notes, and managed jumps and complicated vocal lines with grace a precision most of the time. I mean, have you ever tried singing Annie? I'm a chick and I'd find that difficult. He pulls it off near flawlessly. The choruses of WTS and Apology are no walk in the park either (Although, admittedly, he could really do to lighten up there). He sings much more conventionally now, but that serves to draw more attention to what he's doing wrong (not singing on the right vowel, pushing and singing too heavily, falling off the ends of phrases instead of keeping his air moving, etc). I would much rather he stuck with the methods he was good at. If he's going to abandon his unique style for normal singing, he needs to learn to do it properly.
I've always agreed with you on this..but never really figured out why. Do you think it has to do with not having a producer on this album? Not having someone to spot you and make sure your hitting the right notes? I mean for every other instrument the other people in the band have experience and can view their playing critically... but vocals are a whole different ball game. Who else is going to say that he's breathing wrong, you know?
-Sarah Goodbye you liar, Well you sipped from the cup but you don't own up to anything Then you think you will inspire Take apart your head (and I wish I could inspire) Take apart your demons, then you add it to the list.
I think that may be it. You can't hear your own voice the way you can hear a separate instrument. It's so easy to be completely unaware of what you're messing up. Having someone to listen to you and give you shit about what you're doing wrong can make a huge huge difference.
There's also the control angle. Raine's in charge of making the final cuts, and he may not have the same discipline and perfectionism that would come from someone else judging what's not good enough and making him do it over. I know it can be crazy frustrating to be singing the same little line and thinking you're fine, but having to redo it over and over because you're too heavy or your breath isn't even or you're flat. It takes a lot of patience to get it perfect, and he might not be willing to enforce that himself. Especially since we always hear him talking about they're using an approach that's more "organic" or "live" or things like that. It seems that the perfectionism might not be there.
-Annie (Whee! boring signature!)
Member of the Pokémon League
Well if you listen to some old live performances, Raine sounds a lot different than in the old studio songs, it seems like the producer (then Arnold) probably helped streamline his vocals in the studio performance... that's what they lacked in Burn Burn.
I don't agree with Annie. I agree with her technical analysis. But I don't agree with her conclusion. In general, I don't agree that there is a "right" way to sing. Or play instruments. There is only the result. Some may sound better than others. But I don't agree one is right and another wrong, even if it's bad for your throat or for a sound.
One of my reasons is that tastes and styles change. If you showed someone how people thrash an electric guitar today, 40 years ago, they would be disgusted. But there is nothing wrong with that style, even though they woul have said so back then.
I agree Raine's quality has dropped. But I don't like hearing that there is a proper way, just because a group of people decided there was a proper way. As long as something sounds good, it shouldn't matter.
In Raine's case, he doesn't sound as good as he used to. I don't think it's for most of the reasons listed above, though. I think it's simply because he lacks any emotion when singing.
And I disagree with that kind of hyper-subjectivity. If there's no right or wrong, then there's no objective good or bad, and then there's no growth or improvement. Then where are we?
Also, it tends to be the defense of the uneducated/unskilled. "So what I don't know how to strum my guitar? There's no right or wrong way to do music!!" You might as well say that proper grammar isn't important because it's just for school, and you can communicate without it. Sure, you may not always need it to make a nice poem, but you're not going to write the next great American classic without it.
There isn't a proper way because "a group of people decided there was a proper way", it's because throughout ages of people dedicating their lives to their art, they found the most effective way. You say what matters is the result, but I say what matters is getting the result you're trying to create. I don't think that's too out there. By using tried-and-true effective methods, you can have complete control of your voice or instrument or other form of art, and create the effects you want to achieve. I highly doubt any musician goes into a song thinking "I'm going to sing this song flat, and run out of air at the end of each phrase, and not sound very good!" So if that's how it comes out? They're not doing it properly.
Also, musical technique is not tied to any one style, nor is it rigid and unflexible. Classically trained musicians make metal bands. There are university degrees for pop and jazz and probably rock. You can take that skill and knowledge and apply it to any genre or style that you want. And it will almost unfailingly improve your sound, and your ability to sing/play effectively (you know, with accuracy and pitch and speed and so on). I don't think it can be argued that being better able to handle difficult music, or a wider range or music, is anything other than good.
Mostly, I like the idea that art is deliberate. If I'm going to respect someone musically or artistically, I like to feel that they know their shit and the effects they're creating are intentional. Otherwise they might as well be flailing around in the dark, and where's the skill or artistry in that?
-Annie (Whee! boring signature!)
Member of the Pokémon League
I think you misunderstood me. I don't argue that there are categories and subjective qualities to music. All I am saying is that as an art form, there isn't any truth to it, just like there isn't any objective truth to any art form. It's all subjective. We make our own rules as we go along. I agree that it is fair to say that Raine does something wrong in the frame of modern singing techniques. There is nothing wrong in saying that. But subjectively, there is nothing wrong with any style anyone uses, flaws or not.
I am a dancer, so I know all about professionalism and artistic integrity, etc. It's my life. But it also grants me the insight to know that it's all man-made. I get angry when someone tells me the dance style I perform is too traditional, or too modern, or should do this or that. I respond that the style I perform in has certain rules and traditions, and they are followed. Sure it might be more exciting performed another way or for some other audience, and good for someone else for doing that. So I know what you are saying, because I live that every day.
But I recognize that my dance form is also man-made, and the rules and traditions that go with it are completely subjective. We follow them because it's very nice to have guidelines to go by, and for traditions sake. And I get mad when people break traditions in my dance style just as you would for singing. But it's all made up, and I don't care if someone else wants to break it, really. I get angry, but also know it's their prerogative to do so.
Since enjoyment is subjective, so too are the rules that govern it's performance.
Hey, I'm fourteen. Why wouldn't you read in the summer months? It's an awesome passtime. Speaking of which, there's a good book sitting in my room that I should pounce on...
OLP, on the other hand, can make some effing amazing music and we know it.
