A question for the religious and non-religious alike.

Post by **xjsb125** » 6/7/2004, 3:02 pm

And great comment Aerin.

modern psychokitty · Post by **modern psychokitty** » 6/7/2004, 10:50 pm

Maybe it was just really boring being perfect all the time, and they all felt like making a little soap opera to follow. Like, you pretty much always know where the soap is going, but it's still amusing to watch sometimes, especially when it just keeps getting more and more outrageous.

I've just always wanted to say that. Because even summer vacation used to get kinda crappy at times, when there was nothing left to do. (Maybe that's cuz I grew up in Saskatoon.)

Oh, and as for the perfect thing... let's say we started as Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were perfect, and then they had that little sin thing. So they went down to Earth and had lots of little kiddies. To keep it going, there's a incest thing. (I like to pretend God tossed some random magically appearing people in here and there to stop that, but I don't think there's anything to back that up.) Anyway, with the inbreeding came genetic abnormalities, and we all went downhill from there.

Ok, now that I've gotten all that out of my system, I wanna toss something else out... maybe we can't understand because it's beyond our capacity. Like chimps... you can potty train them, teach them signs, all sorts of stuff, but there's a point where they can't go any further. I think it puts them at about the intellectual level of a toddler. Obviously, you can't start discussing Descartes with the average toddler (I'm sure there's a few insanely bright ones out there) and expect them to grasp the concepts and be able to respond constructively. We break things down into simpler terms for them, explain them in ways we think they can understand. Of course, pretty much as soon as they learn the word, they keep asking why... just like us. I bet the chimp wants to know why too... or maybe it's more enlightened and smirking at us in chimp language, pretending to be the experiment like the mice in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy... 42

I just had a thought. Maybe we need to be looking for the question, like the mice were, because the answer is obvious and simple once we know that, ie. 42.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/7/2004, 10:55 pm

modern psychokitty wrote:
Oh, and as for the perfect thing... let's say we started as Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were perfect, and then they had that little sin thing. So they went down to Earth and had lots of little kiddies.

Are you saying that Adam and Eve lived in heaven at first and when they sinned they went down to earth? :freak:

modern psychokitty · Post by **modern psychokitty** » 6/7/2004, 11:00 pm

that was my understanding...

no making faces at me. i'm allowed to be wrong.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/7/2004, 11:03 pm

Yes, yes you are.

One-Eye · Post by **One-Eye** » 6/8/2004, 5:20 am

Why are people born? Why do they die? Why do they want to spend so much of the intervening time wearing digital watches?

As a wise person once said: "I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it."

Axtech · Post by **Axtech** » 6/8/2004, 5:54 am

Jimmy · Post by **Jimmy** » 6/8/2004, 9:27 am

ok, i'll answer this piece by piece with a follow up that I am a Christian myself...

Axtech wrote:Looking at the Christian model, the meaning of life is almost like a test, to determine your place in the eternal afterlife (that is, heaven or hell).

Here's my first point. If you become a Christian and your main reason is to get into heaven, thats sad. Because being a Christian means far far far more than "getting into heaven". Being a true Christian is a relationship between an unholy person and a holy God which is possible through Christ. Its trusting Him with your life through faith. Not easy. Not the path most taken. Jesus said this Himself. And not many like giving their life to someone else. But you experience the love of God that surpasses everything. Even understanding.

Axtech wrote:However, a question arises from this proposition. What, then, is the meaning of heaven and hell?

First of all, all of the following statements are my humble opinions and please don't think I'm forcing them upon you as I state them.

This how I define heaven and hell. (and how the Bible defines it for that matter)

Heaven = Being in the presence of God eternally

Hell = Being seperated from God eternally

I imagine that if there is an afterlife, we will be doomed to continue to question the meaning of it.

I believe we will know the meaning of it once we get there. It takes faith here on earth to believe it exists because we cannot see it. We also try to understand it, but even that is hard. Like God said, "no ear has heard, no eye has seen, no mind has concieved the glories of heaven. " (or something along those lines

)

Or God, for that matter?

The meaning of God? Well first of all, I believe he created the universe and everything in it and there is astounding intellegent evidence for that. I guess you could say one of His purposes was to create. He also transends time. He is eternal. This is hard to wrap your mind around.

To the question of who created God and/or why? For this I do not have an answer. I think its beyond my comprehension. I mean, the consept of God alone and who He says He is is also beyond our understanding. It takes faith to believe in Him. (not much faith in my opinion, and most people (Christians or not) believe there is a God of some sort or a "higher power" if you will)

If eternal life in heaven is the reason for our living in this world, what is the reason for our living in heaven?

Heaven is just a continuation in our relationship with God. It shouldn't be the reason to be a Christian. (like i said above). Our reason to live in Heaven is to finally be physically in the presence of God. I can't even comprehend that. I can't think of anything more amazing.

This is a massively important question. Is heaven as big as it gets? I mean, that explains this life, but it leaves even larger questions as to the purpose of the afterlife.

Like I said before, we will fully understand once we are in the afterlife.

Let's say that the reason for heaven and hell is God. But then what is the reason for God?

What came before God?

Thats the thing about God. The Bible says He is eternal. He is the first and the last. He has always been there and will always be there. How He was created and how that whole time thing works blows my mind and I don't fully understand it. I mean, if God has always been there, then how was He created? Good question.

Where does the chain of causation start? Where does it end? Where do we go? (ignore the OLP reference, it came out by accident ).

I think it starts with God and ends with God.

If a reason for heaven can not be established, how can one believe that the reason for this life is heaven? How can one believe there is a reason for life at all?

like I said before, heaven is being in the presence of God.

Jimmy · Post by **Jimmy** » 6/8/2004, 9:35 am

Axtech wrote:I think (though I don't recall for sure) that all of that goes back to God being omnipotent. However, that doesn't explain what there was before God, and why God would bother creating a whole universe just to test a bunch of damned dirty apes so they could get into the heaven that he created.

I believe God's reasons are beyond my comprehension. But I know that His plan is far above any of our feeble minded plans.

If we fully understood God and His plans and His ways, then faith would have no place. It takes faith to believe because we can't see Him and we can't understand Him fully. God gave us free will to choose. He didn't want us to be robots.

Jimmy · Post by **Jimmy** » 6/8/2004, 9:41 am

Axtech wrote:The point isn't the heaven may not be perfect, the question is why is there a heaven anyways?

I'll explain my point about heaven further.

As I said before, Heaven is being in the presence of a Holy God.

We are not Holy. I mean, look at the world around you. We fuck up. There's eons of evidence for that. Earth is not a very Holy place.

But, Jesus was Holy. He lived the perfect life because we couldn't. The only way for a Holy God to relate to an unholy people was for Him to become a human and experience it.

Jimmy · Post by **Jimmy** » 6/8/2004, 9:53 am

Axtech wrote:
I'm not necessarily looking for answers, just pondering the unponderable.

I also believe that there is absolutely no way humans can comprehend any of this. Just fun contemplating it.

I'm not really bordering on assertation here, just arguing one side because no one's tried to defend the other yet. I guess that's because it's hard to defend something as hopelessly depressing as meaninglessness in life.

lol ok i didn't see this post, so please disregard anything that is redundant in my posts!

and i think its very good to ask these questions, and to ponder them...most people don't even get to that stage...most of them don't even care!

Post by **xjsb125** » 6/8/2004, 11:05 am

Way to quadruple post, n00b. Johnathan, get the torture equipment prepared.....

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » 6/8/2004, 11:19 am

We believe that we have always existed and we will always exist. I can't comprehend it...everything has a beginning. But not your soul, your soul has always existed.

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/8/2004, 11:23 am

Hahaha, the thing is, if he didnt no one would read all of it.

One-Eye · Post by **One-Eye** » 6/8/2004, 11:49 am

What is a soul, Cass? I mean, does Mormonism explain what it is, what its purpose is, where it came from, what it's made of, why it doesn't remember its preincarnated existence, usw.? *curious*

Henrietta · Post by **Henrietta** » 6/8/2004, 11:54 am

I'd have to ask my Dad what exactly a soul is made of. But from what I have learned it's you, w/o your mortal form. It's your personality and it is what will continue to exist after your body dies. Although your body will be made perfect and reunited w/ your soul at the resurrection. As far as what it's made of...I don't think we know or really ponder that too much. Since you can't see it, but we know it's there, it's hard to study. I'll ask my Daddy though, he's smart.

You don't remember your existance before earth because a veil was placed before your eyes. It blocks you now from remembering what happened beyond the tools sent to us from God ie. propthets, the Bible, and the Book of Mormon...etc.

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » 6/8/2004, 12:26 pm

xjsb125 wrote:Way to quadruple post, n00b. Johnathan, get the torture equipment prepared.....

Yes Boss.

*prepares torture equipment*

Joe Cooler · Post by **Joe Cooler** » 6/8/2004, 12:28 pm

I thought you answered to no one Johnathan.

modern psychokitty · Post by **modern psychokitty** » 6/8/2004, 12:30 pm

he's just trying to de-n00b by posting a lot. be gentle.

One-Eye · Post by **One-Eye** » 6/8/2004, 12:53 pm

You canna' den00b tha' way, Cap'n! It jus' takes TIYEEEME!

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A question for the religious and non-religious alike.

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