Iraq prisoner abuse

[Bandalero]

before all of this, before the US was even created, these people were fighting. they've been fighting since Alexander the great. all anyone has ever known in the middle east is war. all of this regions historical figures have been carved out of war.

Reno, you just put your figure on the overlying problem here.

The United States has entered this war presumably on the grounds that the Middle East needs to be "fixed" or "changed". Swapping optimism for realism, this is a pipe dream. It is foolish to believe that the situation there can possibly be "fixed", especially by violent means (war). The roots of the problem run far, far deeper than that.

In my humble opinion, the hulking US military superpower does not like to think or admit that they are incapable of something. They are trying to do the impossible to prove themselves in some way. The simple, hard truth is that this is not feasible. Not by the Americans. Not by anyone.

no, fanatics put us in this situation. and then for the head fanatic to say that he's doing it because we know some sort of sanity and he doesn't is just stupid. it's ok to let them kill themselves, in fact we'll fund it. but for this jackass to attack us simply because he wants peace is stupid. the only thing your going to do is start another fight, which is what happened.

[Henrietta]

how can you say this, when the ultimate example in today's world of this "man" sits at the head of your own nation?

I geuss I believe in his motives, and Saddam killed people for no good reason whatsoever. There are plenty of people who have alot of power, granted Bush probably has the most, but I wouldn't compare him to Saddam in my head.

[thirdhour]

Ok, you just said Evil was not a relitive term, could not come up with a definition of it, said rape being a bad thing WAS an opinion, not a truth, and are now saying that Saddam = BAD, Bush =Good?

I'm not even sure what the point of your argument is anymore, but anyways...

Some cultures may accept rape. That being said, some cultures may accept murder of innocents. If you have no problem with them accepting rape, then why do you care if people are dying? IF you feel that it is part of their culture and they should be allowed to do it, then you are admiting the invation is imposing on their culture, and that Saddam is not evil, thus making "Evil" a subjective term.

[happening fish]

for this jackass to attack us simply because he wants peace is stupid.

I thought the whole US policy was that they are attacking Iraq for "peace"?

the only thing your going to do is start another fight, which is what happened.

going beyond the complete hypocrisy of a deeply christian president doing everything in his earthly power to do the exact opposite of forgiving and turning the other cheek, that is the exact attitude at fault fo millenia of middle eastern conflict. You wronged us? Well sons a bitches, you're getting it right back! And thusly and so on.

[Corey]

They're not the same. In "A" you have an act of aggressive force. In "B" you have a woman acting to save her own life. "A" is coercive whereas "B" is not.

They are not the same.

Not so fast. You criticized someone for not answering whether or not bombing a building full of "innocents" was terrorism because they didn't know the circumstances.

Now, if I asked you if shooting someone in the chest was an act of terrorism and no other information was provided, what would you say? Whether you said, yes or no, you would be making a contradiction merely based on what you said above because A you believe it was aggressive force, and B it was not. And you wouldn't be able to say "it depends" because neither was the person in reference to the building bombing.

[Henrietta]

What else is this based other than opinion Yannic? All I'm doing is stating my own. There is no clear cut definition for what is and what isn't evil. All people can do is try their best to not be evil and to prevent it.

The point of my argument was simply that it is terribly sad what happened to those people if they were innocent, that the people who did it should be punished, and if they weren't innocent, I'd chalk it up to karma. What is the point of your argument?

[mosaik]

The truth is he does not give a damn about innocent people, or his fellow Iraqis. because if he did, he would fight his fight out in the open and not behind children.

and the americans fight their wars from helicopters and air planes with smart bombs and missiles

and they don't give a fuck who dies.

neither side does.

I agree with this. But, if a man gains so much power that it may be possible for him to start destroying OTHER nations,

This is george bush. This is george bush. This is george bush. This is george bush.

which nation was destroyed, iraq or america?

I geuss I believe in his motives, and Saddam killed people for no good reason whatsoever. There are plenty of people who have alot of power, granted Bush probably has the most, but I wouldn't compare him to Saddam in my head.

Why not?

Let's review:

Americans have killed innocent iraqi's knowingly and willingly.
So have Saddam's men.
Americans have tortured prisoners.
So have Saddam's men.
The USA has a large array of WMD
so does.... no, sorry.
Iraq has used US weaponry to invade smaller nations
America is doing that right now.

I can't say i'm suprised that you choose to ignore this evidence, or better yet, write it off due to differences in circumstance.

you'll say that when the americans shot up those villages, it was during a war!
I say when saddam "gassed his own people" it was during a war. And who knows if he even really did that.

you'll say that the prisoners who were tortured by your army are EVIL TERRORISTS who have wronged your government
What do you think Saddam thought the men he tortured were? I bet he figured they were EVIL INFIDELS who had wronged his government.

You'll say that Iraq invading Kuwait was not about freedom, it was an agressive war.
America invading Iraq is an agressive war.

But even with all this, you're going to tell me they're not the same. Why not?

Corey driving a bomb into a building full of people is always going to be something i frown on. Defending yourself is not.

Cass, one last question. If it had been Iraqis torturing americans, would this be how you feel? Keep in mind that THEY view YOUR ARMY as terrorists.

[Henrietta]

Then EVERY war in the history of man has had ZERO justification. And I think that's wrong. And if the Americans being tortured in this circumstance and deserved to be in jail, then yes, I'd say they deserved it.

[Bandalero]

for this jackass to attack us simply because he wants peace is stupid.

I thought the whole US policy was that they are attacking Iraq for "peace"?

the only thing your going to do is start another fight, which is what happened.

going beyond the complete hypocrisy of a deeply christian president doing everything in his earthly power to do the exact opposite of forgiving and turning the other cheek, that is the exact attitude at fault fo millenia of middle eastern conflict. You wronged us? Well sons a bitches, you're getting it right back! And thusly and so on.

no, we were attacking because supposedly they had WMD's. were attacking because of some resolution the UN came up with. the idea of this war is to enforce a restriction. there's no mention of peace anywhere.

who turns the other cheek these days? that type of thinking, that philosophy is outdated and is defunct. religion is for personal use only, and it should be kept to yourself. religion should not run a state or create it's issues. the problem in the middle east is that there are variances to a single religion, and each of those variances seems to hate the other. that is why the middle east is in this situation. catholics and protestants were rioting in europe a few years back, and that is because the two church's disapprove of each other. the difference here is that europe for the most part runs under a new world philosophy so the fighting isn't as widespread, and in the middle east old world philosophy is the norm and since religion is the major factor here, the viloence is more widespread.

[Bandalero]

The truth is he does not give a damn about innocent people, or his fellow Iraqis. because if he did, he would fight his fight out in the open and not behind children.

and the americans fight their wars from helicopters and air planes with smart bombs and missiles

and they don't give a fuck who dies.

neither side does.

i read alot of articles, reguarding women and children shot down by US military. they interview witnesses, they interview the doctors, but no one ever says what the woman or child was doing. it sounds bad you know, family members dragging in this woman/child, bleeding from wombs inflicted by US troops. i would understand if the article said she went to the market to buy bread and she was shot, or if a witness said that's what she was doing yet, it is never said. why? this isn't CNN or FOX news type media either. one article i read a young man was shot at the doorway to a party. the party was to celebrate a wedding, and the young man shot a weapon in the air. now, the troops were told to expect gun fire from that area in celebration of the wedding, but who in their right mind shoots a gun in the air when there is a war going on? the article made it sound like he was shot in cold blood, but seriously, common sense should tell you not to do something like that.

then talking to a friend of mine back from Iraq, he tells me that kids are taking guns to school. guns bigger then themselves. this poor friend of mine gave out pencils and paper to these kids, and when he saw then carrying guns, he didn't know if he should shoot, if he should run or if he should give the kids the supplies. and when they would leave, the kids would run outside, and wave at the troops. they wave with one hand, held their gun in the other and the pencils and paper were on the ground in front of them. the truth is women and children are fighting in the streets also. the iraqi body count is counting these people as innocent people but they're fighting. when they get shot, someone steals the gun and the person is left there lying in blood and witnesses don't give accurate information. by the time media gets there all they see is a person by themselves, dead, and unarmed.

this isn't the story for all the innocent people dead in iraq. but i'm willing to bet you that it is for some. and the body count website probably doesn't care.

[mosaik]

Then EVERY war in the history of man has had ZERO justification. And I think that's wrong. And if the Americans being tortured in this circumstance and deserved to be in jail, then yes, I'd say they deserved it.

Who says they deserve to be in jail? the government with the most power. How come they're fit to make that decision?

There has never been a good reason to go to war.

Reno, you and i can justify these deaths all we want. The point i was making is as follows: when a suicide bomber pulls the pin, he's not murdering innocents. he's fighting a war. it's the heat of combat to him. he doesn't have automatic rifles or kevlar armor or tanks. he is fighting with the only weapon he has got. and he doesn't care who dies.

when the US army is fighting their war, and they shoot down a civilian or blow up an aspirin factory by accident, they don't give a shit either. they chalk it up as a mistake, a casualty of war, and keep fighting.

that's my point.

[Corey]

Corey driving a bomb into a building full of people is always going to be something i frown on. Defending yourself is not.

There has never been a good reason to go to war.

Umm.. what about for the purpose of "defending yourself". You know, kinda like Stalingrad.

[thirdhour]

There is no clear cut definition for what is and what isn't evil.

That was my point. Thank you.

[modern psychokitty]

wars are always about someone thinking they're superior.

iraq invaded kuwait because they wanted their oil back. because they owed kuwait money, and kuwait took advantage of that by sucking oil from iraqi pipelines and selling it as their own. it amounted to something like 100 million dollars a day.

why did the usa invade iraq? not what they tell the world, but the real reason.

see, these people really aren't so different!

[thirdhour]

That's a very interesting thought.

[Bandalero]

Reno, you and i can justify these deaths all we want. The point i was making is as follows: when a suicide bomber pulls the pin, he's not murdering innocents. he's fighting a war. it's the heat of combat to him. he doesn't have automatic rifles or kevlar armor or tanks. he is fighting with the only weapon he has got. and he doesn't care who dies.

when the US army is fighting their war, and they shoot down a civilian or blow up an aspirin factory by accident, they don't give a shit either. they chalk it up as a mistake, a casualty of war, and keep fighting.

that's my point.

yeah, but he's still killing random, mostly innocnt people on purpose. his was is misguided to the people and not the government to which he needs to aim his exploding ass.

my point in my last post is that if your going to keep a body count or if your going to consider the body count website and it's information as truth, it should have the proper amound of actual innocent civilians dead, not just an inflated number wiith civilian combatants.

[mosaik]

i'll write more in a while but i just wanted to make a quick note on the ibc website..

the iraq body count uses information reported in the mainstream media. beside every counted civillian death, they explain the cause of death. they don't refer to civillian combatants.

[Henrietta]

On a side note, I love that song in your sig.

[Bandalero]

on the site you have a quote from tommy franks. you have a box with 2 numbers, and the title reads "Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq" yet when you click on view data base on April 24th 2004 it list 13 to 14 people dead from by roadside bomb. hate to tell you this, but were not putting roadside bombs in the middle of cities. In march 2nd, 2004 it list 67 dead after a suicide bomber killed them, not military intervention.

read the rest there are numberous listing of bodies counted from roadside bombs, suicide bombers.

[modern psychokitty]

of course it's inflated. propaganda is always inflated.

the country is still in chaos. i doubt any of us would be able to deal with the way the people there are living right now. i for one would be hiding in the corner terrified the car across the street was about to explode, quietly crying for my mommy.