american soldiers shoot and kill 5 children

[starvingeyes]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/893527.asp?cp1=1

Civilian shooting toll may climb
MSNBC staff and wire reports


U.S. troops shot and killed at least seven Iraqi civilians -- some of them children -- in a vehicle at a checkpoint Monday in southern Iraq when the driver did not stop as ordered, U.S. Central Command said. Later, on Tuesday morning, U.S. Marines shot and killed an unarmed Iraqi who drove his pickup truck at speed toward another checkpoint in the south.

THE FIRST INCIDENT took place Monday at a checkpoint manned by soldiers of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division on a highway between Karbala and Najaf, U.S. Central Command said in a statement Monday night.
When the van failed to stop, soldiers fired warning shots and then shots into the vehicle's engine, neither of which stopped it, the statement said.

Monday's shooting illustrated the difficulty U.S. forces face in making split-second decisions about whether approaching Iraqis are friends or foes. The 3rd Infantry lost four soldiers Saturday at another checkpoint when an Iraqi soldier dressed as a civilian detonated a car bomb.

A Marine involved in the second incident, which occurred Tuesday morning outside the southern town of Shatra, told Reuters that he feared that he and his compatriots were also being attacked by a suicide bomber. Marines the white truck with with bullets after it sped toward their roadblock on the main highway near An Nasiriyah, apparently oblivious to barbed wire strewn across the road.

The driver was killed, and his passenger was badly wounded. The truck was not loaded, and neither of the men was in uniform or armed, Marines said.

Also on Tuesday, U.S. soldiers in Kuwait shot at two cars which tried to drive through a gate leading to a U.S. base shortly after midnight, local time. One car was stopped and a man, who claimed to be a Kuwaiti army captain, was detained. The other car sped into the night.

KARBALA CHECKPOINT
Central Command said in its statement that a total of 13 women and children were in the van that was attacked Monday near Karbala. But The Washington Post, whose reporter is traveling with the 3rd Infantry, said that 15 passengers were in the van and that 10 were killed, five of them children who appeared to be younger than age 5.

One of the wounded was a man not expected to live, the Post reported in its Tuesday editions.

The newspaper described the vehicle as a four-wheel-drive Toyota crammed with the Iraqis' personal belongings.

Central Command said initial reports indicated that the soldiers followed the rules of engagement to protect themselves. "In light of recent terrorist attacks by the Iraqi regime, the soldiers exercised considerable restraint to avoid the unnecessary loss of life," the statement said.

The Post report, however, quoted a 3rd Infantry Division captain as saying the checkpoint crew did not fire warning shots quickly enough.

The Post described a captain watching the incident through binoculars and ordering the soldiers by radio to fire a warning shot first and then shoot a 7.62mm machine-gun round into the vehicle's radiator. When the vehicle kept coming, the captain ordered the soldiers to "stop him!"

'YOU JUST ... KILLED A FAMILY'
About a dozen shots of 25mm cannon fire were heard from one or more of the platoon's Bradley fighting vehicles, the Post said.

The captain then shouted over the radio at the platoon leader, "You just [expletive] killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough!" according to the Post.

"It was the most horrible thing I've ever seen, and I hope I never see it again," Sgt. Mario Manzano, 26, an Army medic with Bravo Company of the division's 3rd Battalion, 15th Infantry Regiment, told the Post.

U.S. medics evacuated survivors of the shooting to U.S. lines south of Karbala, according to the Post. One woman was unhurt. Another, who had superficial head wounds, was flown by helicopter to a U.S. field hospital when it was learned that she was pregnant, the Post said.

U.S. troops gave three survivors permission to return to the vehicle and recover the bodies of their loved ones, the newspaper said. Medics gave the group 10 body bags, the newspaper reported, and U.S. officials offered an unspecified amount of money to compensate them.

TROOPS DEFENDED
A top-ranking Pentagon official said Monday night that the troops at the checkpoint "absolutely did the right thing."

"They tried to warn the vehicle to stop. It did not stop," Marine Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said on PBS's "News Hour with Jim Lehrer." "And it was unusual that that vehicle would be full of only women and that the driver was a woman. So we need to find out why it was that they were acting the way they did."

Iraq has emphasized civilian casualties to fuel opposition to the war, including organizing a tour for foreign correspondents last week of a Baghdad market it says was hit by a U.S. cruise missile.

Iraq's ambassador to Russia, Abbas Khalaf, said Monday that 589 Iraqi non-combatants had been killed in the war and that 4,500 others had been wounded. There is no way to confirm or disprove the reports.

'A THREAT UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT'
With many troops jittery after Saturday's suicide attack, U.S. officers said they were being especially careful as they made contact with civilians whose political loyalties were unclear.

"A civilian is always a threat until proven innocent," said Lt. Jason Davis of the 101st Airborne Division. "This is combat. We are in a hostile country. Even if we are sitting on a corner and eating food, this is still combat."

The suicide attack near Najaf raised a new threat for U.S. troops, who already face guerrilla-style resistance from Iraqi paramilitary fighters who wear the same clothing as civilians and can melt into villages after staging lightning raids.

In the small town of Kifl, where hundreds of Iraqis were killed in vicious street fighting, wary U.S. troops tried to balance friendliness and firmness Sunday as they fanned out to do house-to-house searches.

Civilians and U.S. soldiers eyed one another warily around town. The Iraqis waved white flags or held their hands in the air when they ventured out for water or to check on their families.

"Security is the Number 1 priority, but you do whatever you can to be friendly. You don't want to be mean," Sgt. Malcolm Brown said as he waited for a family of 12, including a man in a wheelchair, to approach his checkpoint.

"You have to be stern but friendly at the same time."

TOO FEW INTERPRETERS
There is ample reason for caution. Troops found rocket-propelled grenades and AK-47 assault rifles in many homes in Kifl, but the combatants had melted away. Two prisoners were captured without a fight, including an Iraqi army major.

The U.S. effort to win Iraqi hearts and minds has clearly been weakened by a dearth of interpreters. Soldiers bark orders in English or use sign language to tell civilians to show them what they are carrying inside their bags.

Davis, whose unit had just found a booby-trapped AK-47 in one home, said the dual goals of ensuring security of his men and getting on with civilians posed a delicate balancing act.

"It's a good cop-bad cop scenario. The troops have to be the bad guys, whose only focus is their own security. And the leadership has to show the civilians a lot of respect," he said, adding that he approached civilians bowing, touching his heart with his hand and offering them water.

The caution, it appears, cuts both ways. Iraqi civilians here say they have not had major problems with the searches, but they worry about how soldiers will treat women -- an important cultural consideration in a Muslim country.

And many are deeply suspicious of the invaders.

"The Iraqis do not love foreigners coming to our country with their guns," said Nasir Hasnawi, a middle-aged man who said he had fled his home in Baghdad to stay with relatives, only to find this town rocked by major clashes.

"They say they will leave when they change the government, but we do not believe them. I think they want our oil."

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

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[Bandalero]

but this is after a car bombing attack on that very same check point, it's called being cautious. they were told to stop, they fired warning shots, they shot at the engine, then they shot inside, all this and they didn't stop.

[starvingeyes]

"You just [expletive] killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot soon enough"

[Bandalero]

what does it matter.....you come up to a outpost like that you need to stop, it's pretty obvious.

[mosaik]

and that gives them the right to shoot kids? not stopping at a check point is now a crime punishable by death?

not stopping at a checkpoint manned by illegal invaders, might i add.

[Venom]

Doug if a van was speeding at you and wasn't stoppin after multiple warning shots, shots to the engine, etc would do just hopw for the best or would to take action to save dozens of your own?? The Iraqi's have PUBLICLY said they will use car bombs and other terrorist tactics. Now when people don't stop when giving SUFFICIANT notice to do so what would you think?? I know I'd shot them too. The driver was probably a victim of the Iraqi propaganda and thought they would die either way. The soldiers did everything they could before they acted. They didn't kill everyone which goes to show that they used good judgement and it wasn't a needless slaughter for the fun of it like you would like everyone to believe.

[Johnny]

Its sad but Its War.

[mosaik]

i'm not saying it was a needless slaughter for fun. i'm saying that the amerikan soldiers over there are a little trigger happy lately.

[Johnny]

I don't that the case. They're just being cautious about the new suicide bombers. They probably didnt feel like dying that day

[Bandalero]

i'm not saying it was a needless slaughter for fun. i'm saying that the amerikan soldiers over there are a little trigger happy lately.

yes, and one of those trigger happy guys had a nervous breakdown soon after this little event. he felt sick that he had to do that to women and children. yes, let's hate America's compasionate "trigger happy" ass holes.

[Johnny]

[Axtech]

It's not so much the soldiers as it is the commanders in coushy offices behind big oak decks who are trigger happy.

[liam]

there's no saying other than this is sad. But at the same time these troops didn't know that there was a family in there, they couldn't do anything but be suspiscious of the van. And i bet thier generals or whoever gives them orders said too fire warning shots at suspicious vans and what not. They do what they have to do, this is just a sad accident, theres not much else you can put it as.

[Bandalero]

it's also been reported that they were forced to drive up to that check-point in an attempt to bomb them, cause once again someone's family members were being held against their will and failure to do so in this "mission" was grounds for that family to die.

and general franks is trigger happy?

[Dr. Hobo]

and general franks is trigger happy?

i think he was referrin to dubya

[liam]

Bush is doing what he thinks is right, and it just so happens 3 years ago he took up he was elected or not elected and became president, he knew he was leading the Cops of the World.

[Susan]

Even though he didn't get the majority vote.

[liam]

he was elected or not elected .

thats where that came in

[Corey]

Even though he didn't get the majority vote.

the electoral college has been in place since the very first election.

[Corey]

and general franks is trigger happy?

i think he was referrin to dubya

and he's still wrong.