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How did this iraqi vote in Venom's "gallup poll"?

Posted: 9/30/2003, 11:04 am
by doug
U.S. own worst foe in battle to win over people

By Scott Taylor ON TARGET

SAMARA, Iraq - A LITTLE Iraqi girl - no more than eight years old - squatted beside the road with tears of humiliation streaming down her cheeks.

Twenty feet away, three American soldiers had their rifles aimed at her as she was forced to relieve herself in full view of a long line of parked cars. From inside their vehicles, the Iraqi onlookers screamed their rage at the U.S. troops. Whenever someone ventured to step out of a vehicle, an American officer bellowed, "Get back in the car, a******!" and the .50 calibre machine gun mounted on the U.S. Hummer would swing menacingly toward the protester.

The terrified little girl was weeping uncontrollably by the time she dropped her skirt and ran back to her mother. Her understandably enraged father began working his horn and other Iraqi drivers quickly took up the protest by doing the same.

The Americans laughed as they drove off, their weapons still trained on the Iraqi vehicles.

This incident took place on Sunday after a detachment of the U.S. 101st Airborne Division set up a roadblock on the Samara-Kirkuk highway. The purpose was to conduct a weapons search of all traffic.

However, without enough personnel to man the roadblock, cars and trucks were soon backed up for at least two kilometers in each direction. It was hot and there was no shade on that desert stretch of highway.

As part of their operational doctrine, the Americans did not allow anyone to step out of their vehicles until they had been searched, despite the fact that the waiting time at the roadblock was upward of four hours.

To ensure that no Iraqi ventured onto the roadway, 1st Lieut. Fisher and his detachment raced up and down the queue, pointed their weapons and hurled verbal abuse at any violator. The little girl had been sitting in a small Mazda with six other family members for over three hours before she left the car. Her older brother - no more than 10 - had bravely taken her by the hand and attempted to reach a small depression in the sand, which might have offered a modicum of privacy.

Fisher's Hummer had roared down the unpaved shoulder and braked to a halt in a cloud of dust. The young boy abandoned his sister, who had no choice but to squat where she was.

While Fisher and his men may have carried out their orders efficiently, their aggressive behaviour and lack of empathy had done little to win over the "hearts and minds" of Iraqis.

Although it has been nearly five months since U.S. President George W. Bush proclaimed the war in Iraq to be over, the U.S. forces continue to come under attack on a daily basis. More alarming is the fact that the attacks are no longer limited to the central Iraq region known as the "Sunni Triangle." Last week alone, there were three ambushes in the northern city of Mosul - one of which claimed the lives of five Albanian soldiers serving with the coalition.

"It is believed that many of the Saddam loyalists have been pushed out of the Sunni Triangle by the U.S. military crackdown, so now they are plying their trade in the less protected areas," said Eddie Calis - a.k.a. Wind-talker - the head of U.S. security at the Kirkuk airfield. As one of the few Arab speaking U.S. operatives in Iraq, Wind-talker is on call 24 hours a day.

"We have no shortage of people who want to volunteer information - everything from Saddam's whereabouts, to direct knowledge about possible attacks against our base," he said.

Based on such tipoffs, U.S. military personnel have conducted numerous raids to arrest individuals suspected of being Saddam fedayeen (loyalists).

"The suspects are brought to the Kirkuk airfield where they are interrogated for a period of up to 20 days," said Calis. "At that time, they are either charged or released."

Those facing charges are then transferred to Tikrit where they are tried before a U.S. tribunal. If convicted, they are either incarcerated in Baghdad or Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, depending on the severity of the crime.

The 20-day detention period, in which outside contact is denied the accused, has also led to numerous rumours of U.S. torture and abuse.

Note: We were in the car behind the little girl - and I was one of those who attempted to protest Fisher's action. I guess that makes me an "a******."

Posted: 9/30/2003, 1:44 pm
by wanan
:( :neutral: Poor girl.

Posted: 9/30/2003, 7:41 pm
by call me andrew
i bet the iraqis are enjoying their new freedoms....

Posted: 9/30/2003, 9:33 pm
by Corey
boo hoo... cry me a river.

Pissing in the street sure beats a bullet to the brain. Something these roadblocks help prevent.

What a stupid article.

Posted: 9/30/2003, 11:31 pm
by Dr. Hobo
wow corey.. just wow

do you have any sisters/daughter or anything? cause i'd like to see you say that after your sister/daughter or anyone you are close to and female is put thru something like that

Posted: 10/1/2003, 5:52 am
by Axtech
Corey wrote:boo hoo... cry me a river.

Pissing in the street sure beats a bullet to the brain. Something these roadblocks help prevent.

What a stupid article.


You're justifying this because it's less than murder? Rape is less than murder. Do you justify that?

Posted: 10/1/2003, 6:07 am
by Corey
Its a roadblock. The US didn't force her to go to the bathroom. Imagine being stuck in rushhour and having to go to the bathroom. Who's fault is that?

Seriously, does anybody realize the effort it takes to turn a war-torn country around? What do you all suggest, that the US just pull out now? You think Iraq would benefit from that? Like it or not, this is the best thing for Iraq right now for instiling order. Whether the choice for war was justified or not, debate that all you want, but this part is necessary.

Think back to Japan. What would you have done after the bombs were dropped? Pull out and leave Japan in shambles? Honestly, use your heads.

This article is just trying to create emotions among the reader and doesn't refer to the big picture. I'm not buying it.

Posted: 10/1/2003, 6:12 am
by Corey
Axtech wrote:
Corey wrote:boo hoo... cry me a river.

Pissing in the street sure beats a bullet to the brain. Something these roadblocks help prevent.

What a stupid article.


You're justifying this because it's less than murder? Rape is less than murder. Do you justify that?


Rape is not less than murder.

Not allowing people to smoke in private businesses is less than murder, do you justify that?

Taking money from rich people and giving it to poor people through taxes is less than murder, do you justify that?

Are we done being silly?

Posted: 10/1/2003, 8:42 am
by doug
boo hoo... cry me a river.

Pissing in the street sure beats a bullet to the brain. Something these roadblocks help prevent.

What a stupid article.


The iraqi people aren't the ones being shot at, Corey - at least not by their own peers. Can't speak for what your soldiers are doing.

the reason roadblocks like these are neccessary is that the armed iraqi's are taking a big chunk out your army's manpower and moral by killing them all the time.

Let's make that clear - these roadblocks are most likely in place to disarm an angry group of people who pose a threat to your soldiers.

Its a roadblock. The US didn't force her to go to the bathroom. Imagine being stuck in rushhour and having to go to the bathroom. Who's fault is that?


Read it again. They DID force her to go, right there in front of everyone. I'm not saying that her needing to pee was something they made happen, but why the hell do you need to point a rifle at an eight year old? can you justify that?

the article is making the following points: american soldiers ARE assholes, some of them at least, and they probably have killed or injured innocent iraqi's for the fuck of it.

the iraqi people are being treated like shit, and being abused far more then is neccessary.

the battle for the hearts and minds of their nation is clearly not over, and americans like the ones described in this EYE WITNESS ACCOUNT are definately hurting the cause.

lets see how tough that soldier with the rifle is when this little girl's father gets an AK and puts a bullet in his brain from behind. that's what your soldiers are doing when the cuss out and threaten iraqi children - making enemies.

Posted: 10/1/2003, 9:08 am
by faninor
doug wrote:the article is making the following points: american soldiers ARE assholes, some of them at least, and they probably have killed or injured innocent iraqi's for the fuck of it.


Other assholes:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/10/01/toddler.alone.ap/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/09/19/construction.fire.ap/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/09/30/minister.sentence.ap/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/09/09/valley.shooting.ap/index.html

I don't see why any of this is so surprising . . . :uh:

Posted: 10/1/2003, 11:12 am
by Corey
doug wrote:Read it again. They DID force her to go, right there in front of everyone. I'm not saying that her needing to pee was something they made happen, but why the hell do you need to point a rifle at an eight year old? can you justify that?


I did read it again. Maybe you should give it another look. Nowhere does it say the US soldiers MADE her go. You make it sound like they dragged her out of her car and forced her to piss on the street at gunpoint. No, it was her that had to go and she was stuck in line. Sure does suck but wasn't exactly the atrocity this article paints. Where do you suggest she should have gone? The article doesn't explain the surroundings at all. Were there houses nearby or was it a bearen street with civilization miles away? You just don't know. Also, I question this writer's story. It is obviously fabricated to make the US soldiers appear as monsters when in reality they were just doing their jobs. Were the soldiers really targeting their scopes on the girl's forehead or just holding their guns as they would throughout the period of their post. Again, I don't buy it.

Posted: 10/1/2003, 11:16 am
by Bandalero
Read it again. They DID force her to go, right there in front of everyone. I'm not saying that her needing to pee was something they made happen, but why the hell do you need to point a rifle at an eight year old? can you justify that?


8 year olds can be risistance fighters too. how is this soilder going to know if she is or not? in the lands of suicide bombers, how do you know if her dad didn't strap bombs to her? what if she's a decoy in a plot to ambush troops? what if she's just going to pee?

yeah, it's a luxury to just sit back and call them ass-holes real easily. but at that moment, you have an individual out from their car, defying your rules, who could possably need assistance, or want to kill you. and you have a language barrier, that i'm almost sure the only english they know are the bad words. your best bet is to STAY ON GUARD!

Posted: 10/1/2003, 1:05 pm
by wanan
Bandalero wrote:
Read it again. They DID force her to go, right there in front of everyone. I'm not saying that her needing to pee was something they made happen, but why the hell do you need to point a rifle at an eight year old? can you justify that?


8 year olds can be risistance fighters too. how is this soilder going to know if she is or not? in the lands of suicide bombers, how do you know if her dad didn't strap bombs to her? what if she's a decoy in a plot to ambush troops? what if she's just going to pee?

yeah, it's a luxury to just sit back and call them ass-holes real easily. but at that moment, you have an individual out from their car, defying your rules, who could possably need assistance, or want to kill you. and you have a language barrier, that i'm almost sure the only english they know are the bad words. your best bet is to STAY ON GUARD!


They could easily stay on guard and give the girl a little privacy at the same time. They didn't have to humiliate her. It's thoughtless events like this that make the Arab world hate America, and put good American soldiers doing their jobs in more danger.

Posted: 10/1/2003, 1:20 pm
by Bandalero
no you see, anyone out of a car in this checkpoint is a danger to troops. you have to make sure that what they claim to be doind is in fact what they're doing. cops do that here in the states too. here in Texas federal agents won't allow you to get off and take a piss at their check points near the Mexico border either. i've tried that. and they grabbed their holsters and told me no.

and things like this don't make Arab radicals hate the US. it's the Bi-Product of Old World Philosophy that makes them hate 'the great satan'.

Posted: 10/1/2003, 10:29 pm
by wanan
Bandalero wrote:no you see, anyone out of a car in this checkpoint is a danger to troops. you have to make sure that what they claim to be doind is in fact what they're doing. cops do that here in the states too. here in Texas federal agents won't allow you to get off and take a piss at their check points near the Mexico border either. i've tried that. and they grabbed their holsters and told me no.


I suppose you're right. But, it can't help the American image in the eyes of Iraqis.

Posted: 10/1/2003, 11:00 pm
by Bandalero
what's not helping is the lack of power, fresh water, food, and supplies and stuff. humanitarian aid should be a bigger thing there right now.

Posted: 10/2/2003, 2:58 pm
by Axtech
Corey wrote:
Axtech wrote:
Corey wrote:boo hoo... cry me a river.

Pissing in the street sure beats a bullet to the brain. Something these roadblocks help prevent.

What a stupid article.


You're justifying this because it's less than murder? Rape is less than murder. Do you justify that?


Rape is not less than murder.

Not allowing people to smoke in private businesses is less than murder, do you justify that?

Taking money from rich people and giving it to poor people through taxes is less than murder, do you justify that?

Are we done being silly?


You missed my point, and completely avoided the problem.

You're saying that forcing a little girl - at gunpoint - to piss in the street is just. You compared this to murder, saying that it's not as bad as murder.

Posted: 10/2/2003, 3:10 pm
by Corey
Axtech wrote:You missed my point, and completely avoided the problem.

You're saying that forcing a little girl - at gunpoint - to piss in the street is just. You compared this to murder, saying that it's not as bad as murder.


No, I think you missed the point. First off, they didn't force her at gunpoint to piss in the street. That is exactly what the author wants you to think. He got you, hook, line, and sinker. Read more carefully. The point is that this is a road block and there are repercussions that go along with this like very long waits. Guess she should have thought of that before she left the house. But while we're on the subject, for fun I'll ask you a question. Which would you rather have? A bullet to the brain or piss on the street?

Also, why is it ok for you to justify the lesser crimes that I mentioned?

Posted: 10/2/2003, 3:24 pm
by Dr. Hobo
Bandalero wrote:and things like this don't make Arab radicals hate the US. it's the Bi-Product of Old World Philosophy that makes them hate 'the great satan'.


i dont agree with that at all
its just fodder for their anti-american rhetoric
everything americans do can and more than likely will be construed in some way.. im not advocating it at all but its true and this isnt going to help any

Posted: 10/2/2003, 11:34 pm
by Bandalero
but you see, it's their religous fanaticism, that spurs it from the get go. there's nothing wrong with religion, but a select few are going to take it to another level, and this is with any religion. i mean how many christians blow up abortion clinics in the name of god?