ClumsyMonkey.net

http://www.strike-the-root.com/3/murphy/murphy3.html

Somebody please explain it to me, too. Venom, you know i'm talking to you.

What a stupid article. If it weren't for the US winning the cold war, the USSR would have continued to grow.

LOL! #1 the US doesn't conduct mass-killings of thier own citizens. #2 the US doesn't invade countries to make them part of their own #3 How many democracies are there like the US compared to how many Communist states there were in the 70's and 80's? Was Moscow attacked by capitalists in jetliners? Were they threatened daily by capitalists? There is NO comparison between the US today and the former USSR. You're really reaching Doug. Did I ever tell you about that British writer (can't think of his name at the moment) that thinks the worlds "elite" are aliens and are gonna take over the world? (The Bush's are involved) I think you would find that stuff very thought provoking as well. LOL I'll get the guys name. The book I remember is called "The Biggest Secret".

did you read the column venom or are you just spouting off?

i don't know why i bother.

Who needs to read articles anyway? Obviously no one needs to know what they're talking about to prove you wrong Doug.

I read the article and it is pretty lame.

unlike you i do read the articles Doug, and as Corey said its lame. Theres no comparison.

then why don't you shred the guys arguments for me, line by line? if the article is lame and there's absolutely no truth or rational basis behind it you should be able to put together a pretty convincing argument.

Corey wrote:I read the article and it is pretty lame.

I'm forced to agree, the article was poorly written and is majorly lacking in content to back up suppositions.

I'm going to paste paragraphs from Bob's column, only i'm going to replace "russia" with "america" and then you tell me how it doesn't apply.

with respect to stopping the terrorists:

"Well, the people running the United States really believed in their ideology. Most of them—especially as we move down from the highest positions of power to the lowly soldier patrolling in Bagdhad—thought that whatever the cost, whatever the sacrifice, no matter how many enemies had to be mercilessly annihilated, it was all worth it."

your motivation and the feelings from the rest of the world:

"Outsiders criticized their actions, of course. Tenderhearted people in other countries protested, for example, the American invasion of Iraq. But these critics failed to understand the geopolitical realities. The United States had been viciously attacked by the evil islamic terrorists, all because of their freedom and way of life. Thousands died in the terrorist attacks. No way were the Americans going to allow that to happen again."

your feelings on why the war is justified:

"And anyway, the America soldier would think, why the sympathy for Afghanistan? These critics had no idea how poor and uncivilized the miserable Afghanis were. Compare the standard of living in New York and Kabul, if you want to understand the benefits of incorporation into democracy. Moreover, in all of the countries conquered or influenced by the Americans, there were always indigenous groups to welcome the western liberators. Yes, rule by the White House might not be the best deal for the people of Iraq, but surely it was better than the Iraqi’s sorry lot under the exploitive dictators and their system of islamic law."

lastly, the rational flaw with your and their thinking:

"They didn’t realize that, no matter how much better they thought their own way of life was, they had no right to violently foist their system on other people. And they couldn’t see that their own belligerence was the major reason other countries hijacked airplanes and pointed them at American skyscrapers."

now then. anybody care to respond?

how bout this?

Fortunately, the Soviet menace evaporated largely on its own. The great war to eliminate the Russian monster proved unnecessary. The estimates of the “missile gap” in the 1950s turned out to be exactly backward—yes, there was a huge disparity in the number of ICBMs, but it was in favor of the Americans.

And for all the talk about the wonders of industrialization under farsighted central planning, soon even the ignorant Russian civilians realized that they were the primary victims of their horrible system. They finally stopped believing the stream of lies spewing from their “leaders,” and realized that the global fear and hatred of their country was completely justified.

What kind of revisionist history is THIS?

I think it's more or less bang on. It was Gorbachev and not an outside force that started making the changes in russia that led to the collapse of the soviet union.

and you do have more ICBM's then they do. they have more missiles, total, but america has more of the "good" ones.

Should I start by posting all the countries that do support the US? Well heres a few because I don't have the time to type them all for you. Britain, Italy, Spain, Japan, South Korea, Poland, etc, etc, etc. Now how many felt the Russians were right? Cuba, North Korea (part of the USSR at the time basically). There may be a couple more. You act as if the entire world is against us and you couldn't be more wrong. Since when are countries like France and Germany the entire world?? THERE WOULD BE NO FRANCE IF IT WASN'T FOR THE US and Germany would still be killing Jews. You take crap and try and make it seem factual. All you and this idiot that wrote the article try and do is denigrate the US when there is no basis to do so. I feel its the pacifism of these so called "friends" in the UN that are bringing about hardships, NOT the US. The UN is in place to HELP people in need and countries like France and Germany refuse to send any kind of help. For this reason the UN is irrelevant and I personally think the US (a founding member) should pull out. The UN is worthless, spineless, and a joke to everything its SUPPOSED to stand for. I will not waste my time disecting a piece of trash that you posted. If you want to debate issue by issue and not a pile of meaningless garbage then fine. You make the populace of this board dumber by posting articles by pseudo journalists. Why not comment on my post in the 9/11 topic. Show me where I'm wrong rather than pretending to ignore it because you can't debunk it.

Venom wrote:Should I start by posting all the countries that do support the US? Well heres a few because I don't have the time to type them all for you. Britain, Italy, Spain, Japan, South Korea, Poland, etc, etc, etc. Now how many felt the Russians were right? Cuba, North Korea (part of the USSR at the time basically). There may be a couple more. You act as if the entire world is against us and you couldn't be more wrong. Since when are countries like France and Germany the entire world?? THERE WOULD BE NO FRANCE IF IT WASN'T FOR THE US and Germany would still be killing Jews. You take crap and try and make it seem factual. All you and this idiot that wrote the article try and do is denigrate the US when there is no basis to do so. I feel its the pacifism of these so called "friends" in the UN that are bringing about hardships, NOT the US. The UN is in place to HELP people in need and countries like France and Germany refuse to send any kind of help. For this reason the UN is irrelevant and I personally think the US (a founding member) should pull out. The UN is worthless, spineless, and a joke to everything its SUPPOSED to stand for. I will not waste my time disecting a piece of trash that you posted. If you want to debate issue by issue and not a pile of meaningless garbage then fine. You make the populace of this board dumber by posting articles by pseudo journalists. Why not comment on my post in the 9/11 topic. Show me where I'm wrong rather than pretending to ignore it because you can't debunk it.

You're right that those countries support the US, but in pretty much all of those countries it is only the government that does. The people are not 'with' the US, as all the anti-American and anti-war protests show. I agree that the US is not the new Soviet Union, but it is easy to see why people would think that when it seems like Bush is intent on conquering the world. He isn't interested in letting people live how they want, he wants them to live up to American ideals.

Second, it is highly ignorant to think that the US solely saved France in WWII (which I assume is what your remark intended). The US came into the war at the last second, and while it did put an end to the Pacific part of the war with the atomic bomb, it did not liberate France on its own. Allied soldiers from Britain, Canada, and other countries fought along side the US and together ended the war. And, as a side note, the US would probably not be here if not for France. They did help out the Americans against the British during the Revolution.

Third, the UN is not "worthless" just because the majority of its council does not agree with US foreign policy. It is Bush who is undermining the UN and creating a dangerous precedent by going against it. He is too interested in his own agenda to listen to the majority of the world community.

Having said that, I think comparing the US to the Soviet Union is off base. The US, and every other country in the world, has a lot of problems. The fact that the US government feels the need to stick its nose in everybody elses business does not help matters, but many of the internal practises of the Soviets are not at play in the United States.

neither i nor bob are intending to say that the United States is doing the exact same things the the soviets were doing.

The column intends to illustrate the OBVIOUS SIMILARITIES in the thought processes of the two nations. nobody has effectively refuted my earlier post yet. until somebody does, i say the comparison stands. if you disagree, please tell me why.

The usa has put themselves in to debt by donating so much money to so many causes its rediculus, and i dont remember the usa giving their soldiers barely any supplies and shooting the if they come back like the russians did in world war 2. I remember someone a whule back either on here posting a canadians view on america, and they pointed out all the good america does, no ones perfect, i mean bush one, a huge mistake on americas part for getring wasted and voting for a moron, but the point is comparing the usa to the ussr is the biggest insult to my country, and to even canada for for being huge allies with america.

You're right that those countries support the US, but in pretty much all of those countries it is only the government that does. The people are not 'with' the US, as all the anti-American and anti-war protests show.

See that is EXACTLY why the people that are holding high government positions are there. The population as a whole has no CLUE what is going on in the world today much less anything in the past. I guarantee you if you went out on the streets and did a poll on current events and history as it relates to todays issues you would find that MOST people haven't a clue!!

Second, it is highly ignorant to think that the US solely saved France in WWII (which I assume is what your remark intended). The US came into the war at the last second, and while it did put an end to the Pacific part of the war with the atomic bomb, it did not liberate France on its own.

Common misuse of the word "ignorant", but anyway the US DID turn the war around. If it had not been for the US the Allied forces WOULD have been defeated. That fact is clearly stated in history books everywhere. Yes others were fighting with us, but the US was the deciding factor.

Third, the UN is not "worthless" just because the majority of its council does not agree with US foreign policy. It is Bush who is undermining the UN and creating a dangerous precedent by going against it. He is too interested in his own agenda to listen to the majority of the world community.

Name me one issue that the UN has seen to its end in the last 20 years. And again its not just the US's foreign policy. 49 nations were supportive of the move to goto war against Iraq. 49!!!

The US is not the reason the Germans, Japanese, and Italians didn't take over the world. The US played a minimal role in WWII. They joined at the very end, and now all of our American textbooks give America credit for winning the war.

That isn't even worth a response because its so laughable. Alan get ur head out of the ground and learn. The US troops were in for at least half of the war (not sure on the exact # of days but they started in 1943), but the leadership was in place in 1942. Saying they played a minimal role is asinine to say the least! I'm make sure and remember never to move to Michigan. Don't want my kids going to the same schools that you did. If your gonna argue at least use facts.

its not michigan man, i dont know what hes talking about, pearl harbor pushed us in to the war