The benefit of living in a free country, is that we are allowed to practice our own faiths, without being persecuted by others. If France wants to ban something, that to 8 million of its own citizens is a religious tradition that they follow seriously, France is not a free or diverse culture.
In my opinion, everyone should be allowed to wear what they please, so long as it isnt offensive to others. Religion to many people is taken very seriously, and is practiced faithfully, and in such, all religious laws should be honored. I dont see what the big deal in a turban or a headscarf is, its the equivalent to a hat.
Another proud moment for America.
My reasoning is where does the line get drawn?
If we permit one group to wear head dresses, why can't others? If I were Mexican heritage and decided that since this is a part of my life I should be entitled to wear a sombrero in class should I be allowed to? What about if I was Native and wanted to wear a head dress, fit with feathers and all?
Doesn't this conflict with the learning environment of others?
Maybe it's insensitive, but if you're going to allow one group to wear something, you have to allow everyone else, and personally, I don't see this happening in our public schools.
If we permit one group to wear head dresses, why can't others? If I were Mexican heritage and decided that since this is a part of my life I should be entitled to wear a sombrero in class should I be allowed to? What about if I was Native and wanted to wear a head dress, fit with feathers and all?
Doesn't this conflict with the learning environment of others?
Maybe it's insensitive, but if you're going to allow one group to wear something, you have to allow everyone else, and personally, I don't see this happening in our public schools.
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
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joe_canadian
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I think we got away from the point.
Registering your home address with the government is very different from not being allowed to wear this or that piece of clothing.
The connotations and the possibilities posed by such a drastic step are very serious.
Such a step isn't some small restriction of freedom, it's a threat.
Registering your home address with the government is very different from not being allowed to wear this or that piece of clothing.
The connotations and the possibilities posed by such a drastic step are very serious.
Such a step isn't some small restriction of freedom, it's a threat.
Just because I am sexy, naked, a bassist, and sporting a top hat doesn't make me Duncan Coutts!
J-Neli wrote:My reasoning is where does the line get drawn?
If we permit one group to wear head dresses, why can't others? If I were Mexican heritage and decided that since this is a part of my life I should be entitled to wear a sombrero in class should I be allowed to? What about if I was Native and wanted to wear a head dress, fit with feathers and all?
Doesn't this conflict with the learning environment of others?
Maybe it's insensitive, but if you're going to allow one group to wear something, you have to allow everyone else, and personally, I don't see this happening in our public schools.
A sombrero isn't part of the catholic religion, i'm sure anything that is part of a generally excepted religion would be allowed in public schools, such as clothing and holidays. But to compare a head scarf to a sombrero is a poor choice. Can you name something that people needed to follow their relgion, that wasn't allowed in schools? Our culture is very excepting, multiculturalism is a huge part of Canada's identity, and as Alex said it's ridiculous to say that no one should ever have to do anything to accomdate others.
As for Chirac though, while i don't agree with banning the headscarves, and such, i do understand where he's coming from. I don't think he is a man with malicious intent. He simply seems to be striving to stick to the purest and best maintained form or democracy. He wishes to keep a diverse republic cohesive and peaceful, but forgets that people still have a basic right to practice their relgion of choice.
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
A religion is a belief. I can believe in the history and heritage of my country just as well as anyone could believe in their religion.
I think this thread morphed a little too much. We're way off topic.
I think this thread morphed a little too much. We're way off topic.
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
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closeyoureyes
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Dude, you totally brought up headscarfs to begin with 
.
I Have to agree with Josh, that putting people on a special registry because of their religion(Something they had no choice in being a part of, I may add), is ridiculous and a threat to their wellbeing, as we all know how the US Government likes to jump the gun in the name of "Terror".
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I Have to agree with Josh, that putting people on a special registry because of their religion(Something they had no choice in being a part of, I may add), is ridiculous and a threat to their wellbeing, as we all know how the US Government likes to jump the gun in the name of "Terror".
sinead
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closeyoureyes
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I'm sorry to go back to something we've already gone past, but seriously, it made me laugh too much.
Jim, do you honestly think having to move your head and inch, or push your chair over a bit is compromising education? If such was true, we should just have a height maximum for class, because we obviously are too self-centered to let the tall kid be included in our schools.
As most of us have said, religious and cultural freedoms are available for all. If you felt the need to wear a sombrero to class (props for the ridiculousness by the way) for some cultural reason, you would have the right to do so. However, if this action was simply to ridicule others because you dislike this specific freedom, I personally would find it to be completely rude and offensive to those who really do have a religious reason to wear a head dress of any kind.
Damnit, I always do this. Get into the talk like 5 days late. Go moi.
Jim, do you honestly think having to move your head and inch, or push your chair over a bit is compromising education? If such was true, we should just have a height maximum for class, because we obviously are too self-centered to let the tall kid be included in our schools.
As most of us have said, religious and cultural freedoms are available for all. If you felt the need to wear a sombrero to class (props for the ridiculousness by the way) for some cultural reason, you would have the right to do so. However, if this action was simply to ridicule others because you dislike this specific freedom, I personally would find it to be completely rude and offensive to those who really do have a religious reason to wear a head dress of any kind.
Damnit, I always do this. Get into the talk like 5 days late. Go moi.
Well, I don't know how your school ran things, but we either had our desks spaced out enough to be able to see over people, or if there was still a problem, the taller students were always at the back of the class.
When you're talking about people from grade 1 to 10 (even 11 and 12) we're talking over 60% of students who do not achieve 75% marks. A lot of these students have trouble concentrating, and when you throw an obstacle in front of them, just simply having to shift around is enough to throw someone off. I know it sounds a bit far-fetched but it can be a distraction to a student. Maybe not you, me, or the next guy, but there are students who would be effected.
I just believe that everyone should have an even playing field, and if one person with a set of beliefs is permitted to wear something, others should be able to as well. That simply is not the case right now with religions being deemed as untouchables.
"what's that? you're religious? well then go right ahead and do what you want." That's the way I see things at least, and it clearly isn't how everyone else does.
When you're talking about people from grade 1 to 10 (even 11 and 12) we're talking over 60% of students who do not achieve 75% marks. A lot of these students have trouble concentrating, and when you throw an obstacle in front of them, just simply having to shift around is enough to throw someone off. I know it sounds a bit far-fetched but it can be a distraction to a student. Maybe not you, me, or the next guy, but there are students who would be effected.
I just believe that everyone should have an even playing field, and if one person with a set of beliefs is permitted to wear something, others should be able to as well. That simply is not the case right now with religions being deemed as untouchables.
"what's that? you're religious? well then go right ahead and do what you want." That's the way I see things at least, and it clearly isn't how everyone else does.
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
J-Neli wrote:we either had our desks spaced out enough to be able to see over people....
And voila, solution found. I think there's this thing they try to teach kids in school...what's that again? Oh yeah, problem solving skills. And that other one...tolerance, I think that's what it's called.
And furthermore, your little "but they're distwacted!" jibbly-jab has no basis whatsoever. I'm sure concentration is the ONLY reason kids don't do well in school. (You're right, laziness and learning problems DON'T exist) However, if moving one's neck(which we've already explained could be prevented) is the cause of a child's inability to do the work or concentrate in class, perhaps said child has ADD or some other condition and needs to seek profesional help. As well, if a child honestly could not see the blackboard, couldn't a child be asked to move?
If this a distraction this small could permanantly alter the course of a child's learning, what about other distractions? Should children be sat in classrooms with white walls, no colour, not be able to talk in class, wear non-coloured uniforms ect? Seriously dude, where do we draw the line?
There are solutions to problems to be found before going and stripping people of their right to practice their faith.
I'm quite enjoying a good-natured debate where no one is getting greatly insulted for once, by the way.
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happening fish
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closeyoureyes
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happening fish
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AnnieDreams
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I agree with you Yannic that there are more things contributing to poor grades and whatnot than just not being able to see the chalk board. That really shouldn't have been the basis of my argument anyways. Clothing (and even as far as appearance), whether religious or not can be distractive to some people. Some girls (and I'm sure there are guys) leave the class to go to the bathroom to fix their hair or to make sure everything looks perfect. And people are distracted when someone comes in wearing clothing that stands out, such as low cut shirts, mini-skirts, extreme punk looks, etc. The fact is people have their mind's on other things in the classroom when they should just be worried about their studies.
With that said, this is basically an argument about religious symbolism in the classroom. People put religion on a pedestal, and treat it as though it is untouchable. It is important, but it is merely a belief, which in some cases can't even be proven. So why then don't we allow children to wear whatever they feel represents what they believe in? (which is what I was getting at with my rediculous sombrero example, lol) By all means if all kids were allowed to wear what they believe in, then I say go for it, but it's either all of nothing. Don't draw the line simply because everyone is too afraid to touch religion.
Takes one to know one, cornbreath!
With that said, this is basically an argument about religious symbolism in the classroom. People put religion on a pedestal, and treat it as though it is untouchable. It is important, but it is merely a belief, which in some cases can't even be proven. So why then don't we allow children to wear whatever they feel represents what they believe in? (which is what I was getting at with my rediculous sombrero example, lol) By all means if all kids were allowed to wear what they believe in, then I say go for it, but it's either all of nothing. Don't draw the line simply because everyone is too afraid to touch religion.
yannic wrote:I'm quite enjoying a good-natured debate where no one is getting greatly insulted for once, by the way.
Takes one to know one, cornbreath!
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
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closeyoureyes
- Oskar Winner: 2006
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- Joined: 8/2/2003, 1:36 pm
J-Neli wrote:With that said, this is basically an argument about religious symbolism in the classroom. People put religion on a pedestal, and treat it as though it is untouchable. It is important, but it is merely a belief, which in some cases can't even be proven.
Although you may feel that way about religion, to many people it is of the ultimate importance, and to them it doesnt matter how much scientific knowledge there is, it is the ultimate truth.
While you're saying things about how people get distracted, if we're banning all religious symbols, should we not ban breasts also? They're far more distracting to people than any religious symbol. Ridiculous argument, I know, but its true. A headscarf to a muslim girl is almost as unremovable as breasts, because to her, obeying religious law is her top priority.
sinead
i agree that relgion sometimes has to much power, and it's ridiculous how christian churches are treated. But i think that we still need to maintain our mulitculturalism. I'm no fan or organized relgion having any impact whatsoever, in my life or other's who want nothing to do with it. But at the same time while i shouldhave my right to be free of it's taint on my life (as i see it). Anyone who follows a belief at the same time should have the right to follow it in whatever way it tells them to, as long as it doesn't break our laws, or seriously infringe on others rights.
So yes Jim i'm with you on cutting the BS on untouchable religion, but i also don't think anyone should have something they hold so close stripped from them for something so little and petty. I get pretty fucking pissed when religious groups question my beliefs, and change my life, and the same goes for them.
I would also like to add i agree wholly with Yannic, she's dominating this thread with extreme amounts of common sence, something politians and debaters often through out the window or ignore in the name of their belief.
So yes Jim i'm with you on cutting the BS on untouchable religion, but i also don't think anyone should have something they hold so close stripped from them for something so little and petty. I get pretty fucking pissed when religious groups question my beliefs, and change my life, and the same goes for them.
I would also like to add i agree wholly with Yannic, she's dominating this thread with extreme amounts of common sence, something politians and debaters often through out the window or ignore in the name of their belief.
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
I agree greatly that religion is important to people. But it is only a set of beliefs that one holds. Why are those beliefs, simply because they are religious, held higher than other beliefs like for example a belief in heritage?
Theoretically, I just don't know where a line can be drawn, even though society has drawn it after religion.
Maybe I'm thinking about in more in theory, than practice. I don't know.
Theoretically, I just don't know where a line can be drawn, even though society has drawn it after religion.
Maybe I'm thinking about in more in theory, than practice. I don't know.
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"