First: Emily
Given the earlier statement you made about locking the thread, I took your comment to mean "Again, lock the thread.
" I apologize for the remark I made. I didn't know you were talking about something else.
Let's begin.
YourJesus wrote:ok narbus, remember that you asked for me to explain this all to you later when you're rolling your eyes and bitching about how boring i am.
I'll keep it in mind. Heh.
the thing that seperates man from the lesser animals is his rational mind. this is the key to man's survival, without the ablity to wield logic and reason man would not last long in a world filled with animals of a predatory nature.
A bit of a nitpick: There are a lot of animals whose species have survived a very long time even without having as great an ability to reason as we do.
because man is an animal, however, he has certain instincts. he wants to be loved, fed, etc. he will take action in order to have his needs met, based on instinct. this is called acting in rational self interest.
the only time a man is not acting in rational self interest is when he is not using his rational mind. because man is a creature of free will, he can choose to disable the use of his mind. the only time when mans mind is rendered useless is when force is invovled.
Okay, let's take a bit of a closer look here. You are saying that when man acts on the interests of his instincts, he is being rational. I'd say that it's when he ignores his rational mind that he begins acting on instinct, and just doing what his body tells him, without weighing the situation. For example, I'm walking down a street late at night, and someone starts following me. My instinct might tell me to try and attack this person. My rational mind looks at the situation, realizes that it's a friend who's decided to be a dork, and I don't try and beat him.
I'm hungry. I steal food, or kill a man and take his food, but my rational mind tells me that will lead to great trouble, so I get a job and go buy food from a store.
I see an attractive woman walk by, and my instincts demand some immediate attention. My rational mind, however, tells me that forcing myself upon her would lead to great trouble, so I restrain myself.
Also, there are many times when we aren't logical that don't involve force. Procrastination, overindulging in alcohol, eating that last slice of pizza that makes us feel like we're going to explode, saying the very wrong thing to your girlfriend, driving while tired or angry, the list goes on. There's a lot of times when minds are rendered useless, and not all depend on force. They depend more on us not taking a closer look at the situation.
force is a tool of the lesser animals because they do not have a mind capable of reason. when a man resorts to force, he is not using his mind, and therefore, not acting in rational self interest.
Not true. Back to the alley, let's have a girlfriend in tow. We take a wrong turn, not being familiar with that part of town, and find ourselves in a dead end. Then I realize we've been followed. This isn't a friend, this is a mugger, and he threatens my girlfriend. My instincts tell me that I should try and get away at any cost to preserve my own life. My rational mind tells me that could cost my girlfriend her life, so I weigh the situation, notice the mugger smells of beer, and has no weapon, and fight him off.
Force protected lives, thereby protecting myself and my girlfriend. Plus, I was rational, and I acted in self interest.
my morals are based on the principle of rational self interest. they are the "natural laws", based on the mans instincts and the golden rule: "the freeomd of your fist ends where the rights of my nose begin"
The golden rule contradicts a lot of man's instincts, you realize. If I have no food, my instincts tell me to go get food. If I have no money, and am starving, my instincts will tell me to steal food, thereby violating the rights of a grocery store owner, or they'll tell me to kill a man and steal his food, violating his right to life.
a man acting in a rational way does not murder, steal or rape. ever. for any rational man, the end does not justify the means. a rational man realizes that men are ends in themselves and not tools to be used for some greater purpose. a rational man recognizes that all men are his equals, and as such are entitled to the same rights he would have for himself: the rights to go about their business unmolested.
an attempt to suspend those rights only stems from irrational and ureasonable behavior.
I would like to point again out that acting according to your definition of rational self interest could find a man stealing for food to satisfy his instinct to eat, or killing to satisfy a number of instincts, or raping, to satisfy more carnal instincts. I see a hole in your logic, would be the point.
Also, you are saying that "rational self interest is rational," and you are saying "being rational means acting in rational self interest." This is circular logic. It doesn't work, and is a large problem that I have with your idea.
Rationality is different to different people. In western society, we value the individual. Other cultures value the collective. Who's right? The society where you are raised, in small way, helps determine who you are. The who you are then comes back and helps to define society. You can't have one without the other. How can you say that one is more imporatant?
On that idea, let's imagine a small, country. Collectivist or not. There is a famine, and they have a choice to make. They can either try and feed everyone, and run the very real risk of everyone dying, or they can kill off the very old and very young, both of whom are physically unable to help during the crisis, and thereby save their country, so they'd have the chance to get out of famine and their race to have survived.
Which do you pick?
our rights are not given to us by governors or created by laws. they are given to us by other men, acting with rational self interest in mind.
I agree totally up until the bit about acting with rational self interest, for the reasons stated up above.
You still haven't really defined what is rational. I really don't know that you can, in the sense you are trying. Different people see different things as being rational.
