Prison isn't for socialization, man. How do you think an already disturbed individual is going to get better by spending a few years in federal "pound me in the ass" prison?
It's a punishment.
Capital Punishment
I think that someone should be put to death in rare circumstances. For instance, Timothy McVeigh. If you kill multiple people, and there is absolutely no chance of parole, then you might as well be put to death. You're just a burden on my taxes otherwise.
I think that many of the countries that use capital punishment use it too often. It should be used sparingly if even used at all.
I think that many of the countries that use capital punishment use it too often. It should be used sparingly if even used at all.
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
I support the death penalty. Especially in this scott peterson case too. even if his verdict was innocent he's already dead, he's not gonna get a job, he's not gonna live past this stigma of being in a big trial. people, will always associate him with his dead family and thus will consider him the killer of them.
that's not why i support the death penalty though. some people in society have slipped through the cracks of the system way too many times. even if you have the mental capacity of a 9 year old, you should still know the difference between right and wrong, especially when that involves killing someone. if they are seen by rational society as people that need to leave this world, then society should have the authority to remove them from society.
that's not why i support the death penalty though. some people in society have slipped through the cracks of the system way too many times. even if you have the mental capacity of a 9 year old, you should still know the difference between right and wrong, especially when that involves killing someone. if they are seen by rational society as people that need to leave this world, then society should have the authority to remove them from society.
Whenever death may surprise us,
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.
Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.
Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
J-Neli wrote:I think that someone should be put to death in rare circumstances. For instance, Timothy McVeigh. If you kill multiple people, and there is absolutely no chance of parole, then you might as well be put to death. You're just a burden on my taxes otherwise.
I think that many of the countries that use capital punishment use it too often. It should be used sparingly if even used at all.
It actually cost more to put a person to death, than to imprison him/her for life.
]umm... I'm going to have to disagree with that.
How much can it cost to put someone's head in a guilatine?
How much can it cost to wrap rope around a man's neck and hang him?
How much can it cost to inject a known poison into someone's bloodstream?
How much can it cost to shoot someone at point blank range?
How much can it cost to give someone a lethal dose of any substance?
Now compare even the most expensive of those options to the cost of putting a man in jail for life. These costs include food, clothes, specially trained security personnel, entertainment materials (whether it is books, tv, etc), doctor visits and cell maintenance, as well as a wealth of other things I'm sure. When you add those up, and then figure some people could be in prision for 60-70 years, there is no possible way that death is more expensive.
I'd be willing to bet a man could be killed for less money than it costs to keep a man in jail for a day.
How much can it cost to put someone's head in a guilatine?
How much can it cost to wrap rope around a man's neck and hang him?
How much can it cost to inject a known poison into someone's bloodstream?
How much can it cost to shoot someone at point blank range?
How much can it cost to give someone a lethal dose of any substance?
Now compare even the most expensive of those options to the cost of putting a man in jail for life. These costs include food, clothes, specially trained security personnel, entertainment materials (whether it is books, tv, etc), doctor visits and cell maintenance, as well as a wealth of other things I'm sure. When you add those up, and then figure some people could be in prision for 60-70 years, there is no possible way that death is more expensive.
I'd be willing to bet a man could be killed for less money than it costs to keep a man in jail for a day.
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
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closeyoureyes
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Penguin Josh
- Posts: 7664
- Joined: 4/29/2002, 1:27 pm
- Location: Boston
Cracky wrote:Although you're right about the costs Jim, there is no way to justify killing a human life. Whether they're innocent or not.
But someone has given up their rights the second they take the right to life away from another human. It is part of the social contract that we're all apart of.
The individual only hurts society more by being in jail because we are the ones that are paying for his mistake.
Here's the thing, let's say we have an individual who is very poor. He is about to lose his house, he lost his job, everything is shit. He hasn't paid taxes, because he can't afford to, and knows he will be going to jail. He's a little pissed off about his life, and feels that he could handle living in jail. Knowing that tax evasion only puts him away for short term, he decides he's going to ensure that he stays in jail for life by venting a little bit of anger. So what does he do? Rampage of carnage. Opens fire in a mall, or slams a truck filled with explosives into a building, or something of that magnitude.
So now, since his life was already shit, he's made the lives of thousands of other's shit as well by killing loved ones. What does it matter to him? He now has stability in his life. He knows exactly what he'll be doing everyday for the rest of his life, while someone else picks up the tab.
How can a situation like the one described above not merit the death penalty? And don't say this is an extreme example because things like this (shooting sprees, etc) occur very often.
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
*Ahem* for those of you who refuse to believe what I have been trying to say. I offer you this quote from my research, do any of you have anything besides your own personal opinion to backup what you're saying?
Bain M. Colin, Colyer S. Jill. The Human WAy Introducing Anthropology, Psychology, and Sociology. Published in Canada by oxford University Press. Oxford University Press Canada 2001.[/i]
Total institutions:Institutions such as prisons that are designed to give individuals new, positive socialization experiences to replace the negative results of their prior socialization. Sociologist Erving Goffman originated this term and identified key features of such institutions, such as isolating people from the rest of society. (Bain, Colyer, 383)
Total institutions are intended to wipe out the results of prior socialization, replacing them with a new socialization process. ...There is an emphasis on removing individuality and replacing it with a common group identity. Common methods to accomplish this are giving people identical clothing and haircuts; and enforcing strict rules about daily activities such as when to get up and when to go to bed. (Bain, Colyer, 129)
Erving Goffman's 1961 book Asylums: Essays on the Social Situation of Mental Patients and Other Inmates originated the study of total institutions. In Goffman's definition, these institutions cut members off from the rest of society and place them under the total control of the officials who run the institutions. (These institution's usually participated in a degradation ceremony. An example of this occured at Alcatrez, a federal prison for men in California. On admission, prisoners were forced to strip, take a shower, then walk naked in front of all the guards and inmated to their cell where their uniform would be waiting). Such ceremonies were designed to weaken a person's current identity so that a new could be put in its place. Goffman pointed to three characteristics of total institutions. First, all aspects of daily life are closely supervised by staff. Second, members have no choice regarding food, sleeping arrangements, daily activities, and the like. Third, there are formal rules about virtually all aspects of the daily routine.
Several decades have passed since Goffman made his observations. In many present-day total institutions, degradation ceremonies have been abolished. But the three characteristics identified by Goffman remain in place. (Bain, Colyer, 130)
Bain M. Colin, Colyer S. Jill. The Human WAy Introducing Anthropology, Psychology, and Sociology. Published in Canada by oxford University Press. Oxford University Press Canada 2001.[/i]
Queens Of The Stone Age-Someone's In The Wolf
Once you're lost in twillights's blue
You don't find your way, the way finds you...
Tempt the fates, beware the smile
It hides all the teeth, my dear,
What's behind them...
So glad you could stay
Forever
He steps between the trees, a crooked man
There's blood on the blade
Don't take his hand
You warm by the firelight, in twilight's blue
Shadows creep & dance the walls
He's creeping too..
So glad you could stay
Forever
<----------------- click and listen!
What about those who become dependant on the social reform and stability they encounter in prison? What are your thoughts on the ones who serve their time, and go out and commit crime again, whether it be for their personal enjoyment or a need to return to the system?
<nam_kablam> I'll be naked holding a ":O" sign while pumping their door
xjsb125 wrote:What about those who become dependant on the social reform and stability they encounter in prison? What are your thoughts on the ones who serve their time, and go out and commit crime again, whether it be for their personal enjoyment or a need to return to the system?
Good point. That is why there is parol though. It is not only a reward for good behaviour, it is a way to reintroduce prisoners back into society in a controlled manner so they can re-adapt to life outside of prison.
Queens Of The Stone Age-Someone's In The Wolf
Once you're lost in twillights's blue
You don't find your way, the way finds you...
Tempt the fates, beware the smile
It hides all the teeth, my dear,
What's behind them...
So glad you could stay
Forever
He steps between the trees, a crooked man
There's blood on the blade
Don't take his hand
You warm by the firelight, in twilight's blue
Shadows creep & dance the walls
He's creeping too..
So glad you could stay
Forever
<----------------- click and listen!ok a few things...
First off, the prison system prior to Goffman's book was incredibly different than modern society. The book he wrote is over 40 years old, and I actually find it surprising that it is the most recent relevent work that the text book chose (unless there is an altenative subconcious agenda of try to get students to believe in the system).
Those are some pretty staggering numbers.
Now as for the costs in Canada where there is no death penalty
That's about $100/year per person in Canada (that's per person, not per taxpayer which would actually be closer to doubled) to keep people in prison.
I do recognize that a lot of the people in jails are there for the short term and it is basically a revolving door for many.
I was curious how many people in Canada were serving life sentences. This is also a pretty good source for both sides, as it is a federal document discussing lifetime sentences.
This is from 1998...
So uh Rusty, the balls in your court... I've provided a few good sources for ya (mind you I didn't site them MLA style but I'm sure you'll let that slip through the cracks)
First off, the prison system prior to Goffman's book was incredibly different than modern society. The book he wrote is over 40 years old, and I actually find it surprising that it is the most recent relevent work that the text book chose (unless there is an altenative subconcious agenda of try to get students to believe in the system).
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/rpr94.htm
Reports on the rearrest, reconviction, and reincarceration of former inmates who were tracked for 3 years after their release from prisons in 15 States in 1994.
Highlights include the following:
* Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were robbers (70.2%), burglars (74.0%), larcenists (74.6%), motor vehicle thieves (78.8%), those in prison for possessing or selling stolen property (77.4%), and those in prison for possessing, using, or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).
* Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide.
* The 272,111 offenders discharged in 1994 had accumulated 4.1 million arrest charges before their most recent imprisonment and another 744,000 charges within 3 years of release.
Those are some pretty staggering numbers.
Now as for the costs in Canada where there is no death penalty
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/021030/d021030b.htm
Costs for supervising offenders continues to rise
In 2000/01, federal, provincial and territorial governments spent $2.5 billion operating adult correctional systems, compared with $2.4 billion in 1999/2000.
Three-quarters was spent on custodial services, with the remainder spent on community supervision programs, headquarters and parole boards. Adjusted for inflation, total operating expenditures increased 17% from 1995/96.
Federal operating expenditures on corrections (including parole) reached $1.3 billion, up 23% from 1995/96 after adjusting for inflation. Spending on correctional services in the provinces and territories amounted to $1.2 billion, up 12% from 1995/96.
The average daily cost of housing an inmate in federal penitentiaries was $189 after adjusting for inflation, up 3% from 1999/2000. To house provincial and territorial inmates, the average daily cost increased 7% to $137.
That's about $100/year per person in Canada (that's per person, not per taxpayer which would actually be closer to doubled) to keep people in prison.
I do recognize that a lot of the people in jails are there for the short term and it is basically a revolving door for many.
I was curious how many people in Canada were serving life sentences. This is also a pretty good source for both sides, as it is a federal document discussing lifetime sentences.
This is from 1998...
http://www.johnhoward.ab.ca/PUB/C40.htm
As of March 31, 1997, there were 632 inmates serving life sentences for first degree murder and 1477 inmates serving life for second degree murder, out of a total Canadian federal penitentiary population of 14,448. The total number of individuals serving life sentences for murder has increased dramatically over the past decade. From 1988 to 1991, the number of individuals serving life sentences for murder increased 21%, and between the years 1991 and 1997, there was a 4.4% increase (Correctional Service of Canada, 1997).
So uh Rusty, the balls in your court... I've provided a few good sources for ya (mind you I didn't site them MLA style but I'm sure you'll let that slip through the cracks)
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
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closeyoureyes
- Oskar Winner: 2006
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- Joined: 8/2/2003, 1:36 pm
But how is killing a man who has given up his personal rights by using force on another person considered wrong?
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
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closeyoureyes
- Oskar Winner: 2006
- Posts: 4746
- Joined: 8/2/2003, 1:36 pm
So what you're saying is that I could take your life, and you would prefer my only consequence would be to sit in a cell for at least 25 years?
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
-
closeyoureyes
- Oskar Winner: 2006
- Posts: 4746
- Joined: 8/2/2003, 1:36 pm
Yes.
1) You have to live with your own conscience. Sitting in a cell for atleast 25 years could make someone go insane with guilt.
2) You would be forever changed, and have a giant black mark against your name. No one would ever look at you the same way, and you would never really have the opportunity to thrive again, after your release.
Death is merely the easy and immoral way out.
1) You have to live with your own conscience. Sitting in a cell for atleast 25 years could make someone go insane with guilt.
2) You would be forever changed, and have a giant black mark against your name. No one would ever look at you the same way, and you would never really have the opportunity to thrive again, after your release.
Death is merely the easy and immoral way out.
sinead
ya but what would I care? Who says I'll feel guilty? who says that I'll care what has happened to my name? I could change my name if I ever got out. I could move to where I'm unknown. Not every murderer is known throughout the land.
I can't wait until the day schools are over-funded and the military is forced to hold bake sales to buy planes.
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
"It's a great thing when you realize you still have the ability to surprise yourself. Makes you wonder what else you can do that you've forgotten about"
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closeyoureyes
- Oskar Winner: 2006
- Posts: 4746
- Joined: 8/2/2003, 1:36 pm
okay, I've looked through the internet to support what I found, saying that it costs more to execute someone than to keep them alive.
I have found several:
http://www.davesloan.com/journalism/mer ... stice.html
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/pros_con ... yFULL.html
I feel that these support it quite effectively.
It isn't the actual cost of killing the person, it's the cost that comes along with the legal process. When a person is sentenced to death it is almost immeadiately followed by an appeal, which holds the court up for years. A person can appeal three times (if I'm not mistaken), until they reach the Supreme Court, where the decision is final and an appeal cannot be filed. It's more of the legal process than anything. In addition, I don't think that any American state actually puts a persons head in a guillotine, noose or shoot them point blank. It isn't even that common for a person to get the chair anymore, it's mostly the lethal injection.
I have found several:
http://www.davesloan.com/journalism/mer ... stice.html
http://www.soyouwanna.com/site/pros_con ... yFULL.html
I feel that these support it quite effectively.
It isn't the actual cost of killing the person, it's the cost that comes along with the legal process. When a person is sentenced to death it is almost immeadiately followed by an appeal, which holds the court up for years. A person can appeal three times (if I'm not mistaken), until they reach the Supreme Court, where the decision is final and an appeal cannot be filed. It's more of the legal process than anything. In addition, I don't think that any American state actually puts a persons head in a guillotine, noose or shoot them point blank. It isn't even that common for a person to get the chair anymore, it's mostly the lethal injection.
]