ClumsyMonkey.net

no america is not the USSR

The US is not the fucking reason WWII wasn't won by the Germans. You people are so fucking naive that you think the Americans joining the war instantly turned it around. That's not how it worked, re-read your history books, you might be shocked there were other countries fighting with us in the war, and had a larger role in the war than we did. It's pretty amazing what you find out when you actually read what is said and not just skew it into your own words that America joined the war and the other countries instantly went away.

Yeah, this might be hard to believe, but Russia did play a large part in the war, you know. Ever hear of Stalingrad? After 126 days of fighting, Russia captured 90,000 Germans and 60,000 Italians, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of German and Italian solders that were killed. Obviously that had no effect on the war at all, right? Not like anyone considers that the turning point of the Germans' dominance in Europe or anything. Oh wait, this was the turning point of the war, and intelligent people do know about this, now don't they? And guess how much American help the Russians had. If you guessed 0%, then you're correct!

And all those attacks that the Americans are attributed for, they definitely had aid from British troops too. Like I've said, America didn't enter the war and see it magically end. America didn't win this single-handedly. Hell, the real turning point came from the Russians, without American help, yet we don't care to recognize this.

For the love of God, we know there was no "surprise attack" of Pearl Harbor. Roosevelt knew about it before it happened, therefore, there's no surprise involved.

But yeah, I am crazy because I know how the war actually turned around. I proved you wrong, but I am making this up, right? Face it Venom, you're wrong. Russia turned the war around. America came in and fought afterwards.

Venom wrote: Common misuse of the word "ignorant", but anyway the US DID turn the war around. If it had not been for the US the Allied forces WOULD have been defeated. That fact is clearly stated in history books everywhere. Yes others were fighting with us, but the US was the deciding factor.

Ignorant \Ig"no*rant\, a. [F., fr. L. ignorans, -antis, p. pr.
of ignorare to be ignorant. See Ignore.]
1. Destitute of knowledge; uninstructed or uninformed;
untaught; unenlightened.

That's exactly what I meant. But it doesn't really matter. It's not really important to the discussion.

Here's a link to an article by Benjamin Schwarz for the LA Times, 2000:

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/lists ... /1260.html

The first half of the article is not entirely relevent to this discussion, but the second half sure is.

Where is that guy who wanted proof that FDR knew about pearl harbour?

taken from MSN ENCARTA:

"The U.S. authorities had broken the Japanese diplomatic code and knew an attack was imminent. A warning had been sent from Washington, but, owing to delays in transmission, it arrived after the raid had begun."

and alan is right, Stalingrad is the reason the allies won the war. Stalingrad was the turning of the tide, it was the battle where the german armies stopped advancing and started retreating.

Oh ok so Normany, the Buldge, the battle of the Atlantic meant nothing?? That didn't weaken the Germans so much that they had hardly anything left? They were redeploying groups to the western front because they were getting slaughtered. Stalingrad was the ONLY major battle the Russians won and it took 20 million people to die before they got that far. The Russians won by sheer numbers not tactics or weapons. They lost over 20 million troops and civilians. More than every other nation involved. They weren't the best nation on the battle field by a long shot. They just sacrificed more people.

no, the russians weren't the best nation on the battlefield.

that was the germans.

like it or not, venom, the russians killed more germans then anybody else and were the deciding force in the war.

The Germans were foolish. They marched into Stalingrad thinking they had crushed the Soviets, and had no supplies behind them. The Germans stupidity made the Soviets look much better than they were.

Wow, you really are stupid. America joined at the end with the Germans already falling apart. We joined at the end, fought two major battles, killed a bunch of innocent Japanese people, and we're suddenly the reason WWII went the way it did. How about you pull your head out of your ass and realize there were other people involved with the war that did much more before the US joined. Jesus.

opertation barborosa was the stupidest thing hitler could have done. who marches into russia in the winter? napoleon, and hitler, and they both suffered major losses.

Japan, Russia, Britian, and Germany were the best armies going in the war. in the end, germany was a shell of their military might, japan got what they were giving, and russia lost so many people, they were in shambles. who does that leave, Britian and the US by default.

killed a bunch of innocent Japanese people

why do you make it sound so bad? by todays standard it's a bad thing to do, but back then it wasn't.

How about you pull your head out of your ass and realize there were other people involved with the war that did much more before the US joined. Jesus.

Yeah they did so much. Germany held almost all of Europe when the US joined. Those innocent Japanese civilians you talk about were armed and fighting in Okinawa before we took it. Also Reno is right. Killing civilians was not a big deal back then. In fact many more civilians than soldiers died in WWII.

Alan its obvious you know nothing about history.....we've established that. Do yourself a favor and read some history books rather than comming here and calling me names. You're not helping your cause. The facts are the facts. You get me some good historical evidence that shows how well the Allies were doing in WWII before the US came in. For the record the only countries fighting the Japanese in the East were the US and Britain. At the end it was just the Us because Britian didn't have enough men and equipment to help out. Sure the Chinese and the Koreans, etc were there but didn't do much. You're acting like a frightened animal thats backed into a corner. All you can do is lash out. You can't defend the words you speak. No ones gonna change your view on the world. Only you can do that by doing research and not listening to the uneducated and uninformed BS that whoever it is is feeding you. The US has messed up, I'll admit that. I'm not totally pro-government, but we are doing the right thing with fighting terrorism, except for being friendly with Pakistan. Musharraf is on our side but the country as a whole is bad news. They are in my opinion right up there on the threat chart along with Iran. Those two countries are a terrorist playground. Mark my words if something happens to Musharraf shits gonna hit the fan.

You just described yourself right there. You never provide any links to show me your information. You constantly flame on anyone that opposes your views and you make sensational claims like saying I wanted the people that died in the World Trade Center building dead because I didn't want to hear about 9/11 everyday of my life. You're the one that seems to have no real grasp on history. I get my information from text books that are sitting in my room that I had to read in high school. I don't think the book that was issued to all high schools across America for the AP US History exam would lie to me about this. I think I am going to believe what my books say, rather than your unfounded words.

Yes, Europe wasn't dominating Germany in WWII before the US joined. But the fact of the matter is, the Russians kicked the shit out of the Germans before the US joined the war. That gave everyone in the war hope that they could beat the Germans and sent the Germans reeling, not to mention their army was so stretched out across the globe they didn't have the forces to fight everyone at once. If the Germans sent out all their troops, the magical United States wouldn't have made a difference in this war. But the fact of the matter is, the German army was in 10 different places fighting different wars. I doubt we would have won the Battle of Normandy if the Germans had a complete army there.

I am not going to discuss Japan with you until you will admit that Roosevelt previously knew that the attack on Pearl Harbor was going to happen. It's published in major texts everywhere, and you still choose to deny it. I am not going to bother with this subject because you're too stubborn to realize that it's a well-known fact that this was no surprise attack. Just because a love movie says it was doesn't mean it's true.

I'm done talking to you Venom. You're not worth the effort to carry a discussion. You don't do anything but yell at people and make outrageous claims that have absolutely no evidence to back it up. Until you're willing to listen to people without flaming on them, I'm not going to bother with you. You're too frustrating.

LOL yeah I'm the flamer.

That gave everyone in the war hope that they could beat the Germans and sent the Germans reeling, not to mention their army was so stretched out across the globe they didn't have the forces to fight everyone at once.

The US was fighting all over too. Germany wasn't in the Pacific! Yes the Russians did well on the Eastern front. Too bad they lost millions of people. The Japanese were a much tougher force to reckon with. Roosevelt may have expected an attack but not the when and where. Its asinine to say he did. Just like the US knew the terrorists would strike, but not when and where. Its doesn't count for much if anything.

OK, terrorists specifically said they would attack on 9/11. That was on the national news a week after 9/11 happened. You should know this, you live in New York.

And that post is the exact reason I refuse to discuss anything with you anymore. Instead of taking my points and giving me evidence proving me wrong, you think it's easier just to say my facts are asenine, not to mention saying that the Russian impact in the war was null and void because they lost millions of people. I am confident that if America joined in the beginning, we'd have lost just as many people, not to mention that there was a good chance Germany would have won the war.

Just a tid bit of information, at the time the Canadian Army was actually a VERY respectable army and aided the allies probably more then the all mighty american's........of course that was back when we still had an army......

PS i'm not trying to sound highand mighty about canada it's just the truth, still having a strong tie to Britain meant we were involved immidiatly aswell

I am confident that if America joined in the beginning, we'd have lost just as many people, not to mention that there was a good chance Germany would have won the war.

We wouldn't have lost as many people because our country is 5,000 miles away. @0 million of the Russian dead were civilians. How do you figure the allies would have lost if America had joined earlier??

11am, Dec. 7 - FDR reads 15th message setting 1pm delivery time for 14-part message to Hull - but still no indication of where Japanese attack would take place

http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/Prelude23.html


They thought an attack was comming not where. Happy Alan? Now show me some historical proof that he knew pearl harbor was gonna be attacked on the morning of Dec. 7th!

Clumsyboy wrote:Just a tid bit of information, at the time the Canadian Army was actually a VERY respectable army and aided the allies probably more then the all mighty american's........of course that was back when we still had an army......

PS i'm not trying to sound highand mighty about canada it's just the truth, still having a strong tie to Britain meant we were involved immidiatly aswell

that just isn't true. The canadian military was in better shape back then, but they were not then and never have been anywhere close to the killing machine that the USA is.

thank god for that.

Venom, let it drop. You got into the war in Europe a year and a half before it ended. By then the Russians were kicking hitler out of stalingrad. The Americans defeated the Japanese, who are on the other side of the CONTINENT from Germany.

It doesn't matter what "could/would" have happened had america joined the war earlier. the point is, history is history and the facts read like this:

the main aggressor nation against europe was Germany, not Japan or Italy.
Germany was most successful from 1939-1941. On decemeber 6, 1941 a full twenty four hours before pearl harbour and five days before the germans declared war on the USA, THE RUSSIANS BEGAN THEIR COUNTERATTACK.

No american had set foot in europe or piloted a war plane or even thought about hitler yet.

In July of 1942, while the americans were busy bombing japan, the russians made their stand at STALINGRAD.

Nobody is trying to diminish the contribution the united states army made to world war II. however, they would not have been able to topple Germany on their own as you seem to believe. The whole reason FDR allowed pearl harbour to happen was that HE FEARED HITLER. he did not want to be alone in the world with Germany after the war.

Lucky for him, his communist brothers helped him out.

Doug do you think the Soviets would have liberated countries like France after they backed the Germans out of Russia? Were the Russians good enough allies to care that much or would they have allowed the Germans to keep that land? Or better yet would they have taken it for themselves? Think about your answer very carefully. My whole point in this arguement was that the US saved France like it or not.

Considering France was a good enough ally to Russia to join the war on their behalf, I'd say Russia would return the favour, so to speak.