Hmm I disagree. I think we are more than "machines made of meat." For one, if we were simply biological computers there would not be free will. If we are purely beings made of matter without "soul" or "mind" then we are completely at the will of natural law. Therefore everything I do would essentially be rigged by the environment. As J.P Moreland puts it "how could you hold me responsible for my behavior if I was not free to choose how I would act." Of course this all depends on whether free wlll actually exists.
One illustration I've heard goes like this. A sargent is on a battlefield and notices that a solider from his unit is wounded and unable to make it back to saftey. The sargent feels two immediate emotions. One is to rescue the soldier and get him out of harms way. The second emotion is one of fear. Rather than save the solider, the sargent could stay in relative saftey, thus keeping himself out of harm. While both emotions occur at the same time, his urge to protect himself far outweighs his urge to protect the wounded soldier. And yet a third "state" comes upon the sargent causing him to over ride the dominant emotion and resue the solider. If free will did not exist such an occurance would not happen because the sargent would yield to the dominant emotion. Of course the actual explanation was far better than I could word it but you get the idea I'm sure.
Machines gaining on Humans
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happening fish
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happening fish
- Oskar Winner: 2006
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You just made a sweeping and unfounded statement about "biological computers".
That's terrible logic...
A Humans have free will because we're not biological computers
B Biological computers don't have free will because they're not humans
Not only are both of those statements unsubstantiated, but that's a circular argument. It's a big fat fallacy.
That's terrible logic...
A Humans have free will because we're not biological computers
B Biological computers don't have free will because they're not humans
Not only are both of those statements unsubstantiated, but that's a circular argument. It's a big fat fallacy.
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Joe Cooler
Perhaps you should point out where you disagree with me and why my statements are terrible logic. If what I said was not clear, let me rephrase.
Human beings are more than "biological computers" because we have free will. This was in response to earlier statements that likened the human brain to a computer.
Why is this statement so important? Because computers do not have free will. They simply do X when Y occurs. If the human brain was simply a "biological computer" than there would be no such thing as free will because we would be a slave to natural law.
Ultimately what I'm saying is that I do not believe the human brain should be viewed as simply a "biological computer." Now before I bother explaining why I believe the human brain should not be viewed this way, I'd like you to tell me exactly why my arguement is so pathetic. Perhaps I am stupid but I really do not understand how I'm making "sweeping and unfounded" statements.
Human beings are more than "biological computers" because we have free will. This was in response to earlier statements that likened the human brain to a computer.
Why is this statement so important? Because computers do not have free will. They simply do X when Y occurs. If the human brain was simply a "biological computer" than there would be no such thing as free will because we would be a slave to natural law.
Ultimately what I'm saying is that I do not believe the human brain should be viewed as simply a "biological computer." Now before I bother explaining why I believe the human brain should not be viewed this way, I'd like you to tell me exactly why my arguement is so pathetic. Perhaps I am stupid but I really do not understand how I'm making "sweeping and unfounded" statements.
I agree with you, Computer can not spontaneously achieve awareness as our ancestors did millions of years ago. That is true, but none of us were the original beings of awareness either. We're copies and modifications that have been programmed into our DNA as we formed. Sure computers won't just gain a sense of awareness as we did, but if we coudl program it into them to the point of being a copy of us, or just a sophisticated, what to say that they haven't arrived at the same desitination through diffrent means.
Humans:
1+3 = 4
Computers:
2+2 = 4
Diffrent means of getting to the same destination.
Humans:
1+3 = 4
Computers:
2+2 = 4
Diffrent means of getting to the same destination.
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
Your battlefield example:
Yes, that is what would be considered free will. In the definition of the word, I'll agree with you. Free will is the freedom of choices we as human beings have. However, human characteristics, such as chosing to put yourself in danger to save another person, don't just come from nowhere. It's not like you're walking around one day, you smack your head on a pole and suddenly you realize you've got to be more heroic.
We don't know anything that didn't either come from our genes or our experiences or a combination of both. What makes us human is nature and nurture, nothing else. We are not free enough to stop our animal side from playing out. If someone kills someone, he's got to be responsible for his actions. But that responsiblity is a major reason people don't kill other people every day. If you felt NO responsiblity for making sure other people around you didn't get shot....by you...., then you might do it if you got angry enough.
We make all decisions based on thoughts. That's why people study psychology. They want to understand just how it is that the human mind works, and no one knows. But everything you do, every choice you make and every thought you think goes through your brain. If your brain didn't exist (and i'm going to say, yep, it's a machine made out of meat) YOU, as a creature and as a 'soul' would not exist.
Yes, that is what would be considered free will. In the definition of the word, I'll agree with you. Free will is the freedom of choices we as human beings have. However, human characteristics, such as chosing to put yourself in danger to save another person, don't just come from nowhere. It's not like you're walking around one day, you smack your head on a pole and suddenly you realize you've got to be more heroic.
We don't know anything that didn't either come from our genes or our experiences or a combination of both. What makes us human is nature and nurture, nothing else. We are not free enough to stop our animal side from playing out. If someone kills someone, he's got to be responsible for his actions. But that responsiblity is a major reason people don't kill other people every day. If you felt NO responsiblity for making sure other people around you didn't get shot....by you...., then you might do it if you got angry enough.
We make all decisions based on thoughts. That's why people study psychology. They want to understand just how it is that the human mind works, and no one knows. But everything you do, every choice you make and every thought you think goes through your brain. If your brain didn't exist (and i'm going to say, yep, it's a machine made out of meat) YOU, as a creature and as a 'soul' would not exist.
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Joe Cooler
According to neuro surgen Wilder Penfield, there is evidence that the brain and mind are distinct from each other, although they clearly interact. He came to this conclusion after a series of experiements on Epileptic patients. The experiment was as follows.
"Penfield would stimulate electrically, the proper motor cortex of conscious patients and challenge them to keep one hand from moving when the current was applied. The patient would seize this hand with the other hand and sturggle to hold it still. Thus one hand under the cotrol of the electrical current and the other hand under the control of the parient's mind fought againts each other. Penfield risked the explanation that the patient had not only a physical brain that was stimulated to action but also a nonphysical reality that interacted with the brain."
Interesting to say the least.
"Penfield would stimulate electrically, the proper motor cortex of conscious patients and challenge them to keep one hand from moving when the current was applied. The patient would seize this hand with the other hand and sturggle to hold it still. Thus one hand under the cotrol of the electrical current and the other hand under the control of the parient's mind fought againts each other. Penfield risked the explanation that the patient had not only a physical brain that was stimulated to action but also a nonphysical reality that interacted with the brain."
Interesting to say the least.
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happening fish
- Oskar Winner: 2006
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- Joined: 3/17/2002, 11:22 am
he did that in the Montreal Neurological Institute, which I lived next door to last year and can still see from my window 
the building has a big quote carved into it by him.... i walked past it every damn morning last year but damned if i can remember what it says...
edit: darnit i can't find a picture, i'll take a look tomorrow. something about the goal of psychology is to understand man
awkward is the new cool
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