Gay, Lesbian, Bi-Sexual, Two-Spirited, Transexual
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Joe Cooler
I never assumed that once my good friend. I'm merely presenting the Christian point of view. Never did I make any claims for any other religion outside of the Abrahamic faiths. Please stop assuming what I believe. If I remember correctly, you've done it quite a few times and been incorrect on all accounts.
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closeyoureyes
- Oskar Winner: 2006
- Posts: 4746
- Joined: 8/2/2003, 1:36 pm
Actually homosexuality was an accepted part of North American, Med., Middle Eastern, Asian, and African culture before the arrival Abrahamic faiths.
.... I don't know what you're talking about, because it was because of the Abrahamic Faiths that the world was populated..... There was no such time when people existed without God.
sinead
quote="closeyoureyes"]
Sorry i had you and Closeyoureyes confused with all that quoting. This was the comment i have been reacting to. The statement is false.
Not really. 100 years ago Homosexuality was a "Sin" or viewed as wrong almost everywhere, regardless of Religion.
Sorry i had you and Closeyoureyes confused with all that quoting. This was the comment i have been reacting to. The statement is false.
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
closeyoureyes wrote:Actually homosexuality was an accepted part of North American, Med., Middle Eastern, Asian, and African culture before the arrival Abrahamic faiths.
.... I don't know what you're talking about, because it was because of the Abrahamic Faiths that the world was populated..... There was no such time when people existed without God.
Even The Pope excepts that the world, and humanity existed before, Jesus walked the earth and also before Moses recieved the commandments. This is absurd, you don't seem to grasp your own faith. In my understanding your faith teaches you that God created the world, then humanity fell from grace, shattering the perfect world and then we continued on in our imperect form untill God aided Moses and gave him his laws. Either way if i've made small theological errors forgive me, i'm a student of many faiths not one. Point is even your faith excepts that man existed before the Abrahamic scriptures, hell where did Abraham come from then? He was not Adam.
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
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closeyoureyes
- Oskar Winner: 2006
- Posts: 4746
- Joined: 8/2/2003, 1:36 pm
Goodness Gracious Me.
You really don't know anything about Religion, do you. Jesus is in the NEW TESTAMENT. There was also this thing called the "Old Testament", which documents life under God from the beginning of the earth until Jesus's birth.
Jesus didn't start Religion/God, he started Christianity for those who accepted him as the Messiah/True son of God. Before, everyone was Jewish.
Also. in Genesis it is documented from the beginning of the earth, the mens births in order. I can't for the life of me remember who fathered Abraham, but he was a descendant of Adam(Obviously.), Genesis begins with Adam and Eve.
You really don't know anything about Religion, do you. Jesus is in the NEW TESTAMENT. There was also this thing called the "Old Testament", which documents life under God from the beginning of the earth until Jesus's birth.
Jesus didn't start Religion/God, he started Christianity for those who accepted him as the Messiah/True son of God. Before, everyone was Jewish.
Also. in Genesis it is documented from the beginning of the earth, the mens births in order. I can't for the life of me remember who fathered Abraham, but he was a descendant of Adam(Obviously.), Genesis begins with Adam and Eve.
sinead
Well i actually did know all of that, i did not say Jesus Christ started it all, he started the Jewish Sect known as Christianity, named after himself by his followers. Later this became a religion in it's own right.
I understand the idea that we are decendents of Adam And Eve, every North American knows this.
You say i don't know much about religion, that shows your all to common western misconception of Christianity and it's relatives as religion itself. They are forms of religion, not religion itself. I would be as bold to say that i probably know more about religion then you yourself do.
And your comment makes no sense. Do you not understand that homosexuality could be accepted before abrahamic scriptures and teachings existed, or continue on outside of their reaches such as in North America. I am not trying to challenge your idea of creation, i'm saying that all other non-monotheistic cultures practiced acceptance of homosexuality, which makes abrahamic religions an anomoly.
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
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Henrietta
Cass wrote:Yeah dude...half of the bible is after Christ, half of it is prophets claiming that Christ WILL come. I was watching the History Channel today, and the Persians even had a prophet that prophesied of Christ.
Sorry maybe i'm to tired, how does that pertain to anything i just said?
I would also like to add that i've stepped into a Christian place of worship twice in my life, once when i was 4, and tonite when i was jamming with some friends. Yet i still seem to have a firmer grasp on Christianity then 75% of the faithful.
*Sorry that was an attack, i probably shouldn't have said that last bit.*
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
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Henrietta
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Joe Cooler
Perhaps, and perhaps not. Your definition of "grasping" Christianity could be vastily different from mine. To you, grasping Christianity simply means understanding it's history, origins, dogma ect. To me, knowing about Christianity and actually "grasping" it are two very different things. You could know all the facts in the world but really that means nothing. To grasp a faith, you must live it. You must follow it, and put your faith in it. Goodness knows, you know more about christianity than some 10 year old in a youth group, but ultimately they are actually grasping it, and you're not.
Here's a simplified version of what i'm saying.
The world is a class-room. There's lets say, 50 kids in the class. all of them but three are ok with gays, 3 kids, who are brothers, think homosexuals are evil. These three kids are the abnormal ones in class.
The world is a class-room. There's lets say, 50 kids in the class. all of them but three are ok with gays, 3 kids, who are brothers, think homosexuals are evil. These three kids are the abnormal ones in class.
Last edited by I AM ME on 10/4/2005, 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
Joe Cooler wrote:Perhaps, and perhaps not. Your definition of "grasping" Christianity could be vastily different from mine. To you, grasping Christianity simply means understanding it's history, origins, dogma ect. To me, knowing about Christianity and actually "grasping" it are two very different things. You could know all the facts in the world but really that means nothing. To grasp a faith, you must live it. You must follow it, and put your faith in it. Goodness knows, you know more about christianity than some 10 year old in a youth group, but ultimately they are actually grasping it, and you're not.
Fine i'll put it this way, i know more of the bibles teachings and history then most Christian ADULTS i know. You cannot deny that understanding of the Bible is sparse a best among the average Christian citizen.
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
Cass wrote:What does it have to do with anything? Perhaps I'm the one his tired, I'm just agreeing with Sinead. But don't say you understand more about "our" religion than we do. How would you know?
i did not claim to know more then you, i claimed to know more then the average christian. You obviously know much more then i on the subject. I also said that the comment she made was absurd, which it was.
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
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Joe Cooler
No their understanding of the history of the Bible is spare at best. Their understanding of the Bible and how it apply's to their Christian walk is probably greater than yours. To the average Christian, the formation of the canon, and the historical implications of it mean little. Really it's like any world view today. An athiest will know why the believe what they do, and support it with athiestic material, but many could care less about the history of athiesm.
anyways, we've gone so far away from the point this argument started about and we're now dwelling on the details. Answer me this do you not agree that Abrahamic religions are an abnormality among world religions? And also do you believe that homosexual behavior has always been taboo in all cultures of the world?
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
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Henrietta
And my argument is, what are the statistics that actually 7 of this kids don't accept it? How do you know? I mean statistically. Even now the minority is more vocal the majority, I suspect this is how it is in historical context too.
But, I'm not even "Christian" to most of the Christian communities, so I suppose it doesn't even matter.
But, I'm not even "Christian" to most of the Christian communities, so I suppose it doesn't even matter.
ahhhhhh those kids are world religions......they're not real people so i understand what you're trying to say, but i'm not talking about statistics of people, i'm just saying of the lets say 50 biggest religions, 3 don't agree. They are the anomoly. I get this because almost all religions accepted or at least did not demonize homosexual behaviour,some even revered it.
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
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Joe Cooler
Yes the Abrahamic (or more specifically, Judaisms) view of homosexuality was an abnormality in comparision to the religions of the day surrounding it. However, many of the religions surrouding the middle east practiced rituals that would be unquestionably wrong today. In that respect, Judiasm was an abnormality on all accounts and therefore, I think the debate is pointless. (Note that i'm speaking of religions in and around Judaism. I know little of eastern religion at the time of the OT) Secondly, you can argue that at one point homosexuality was accepted on a wide basis, but today, you'll be a lot more hard pressed to find acceptance for it simply because Islam's and Christianity's influence is so broad.
exactly the point i'm making, i'm saying that homosexuality as wrong is not a natural human conception, but a socialized idea that is put into chirldren because of our Christian and Islamic bias.
What i'm saying is, before these were powerfull institutions, the story was much diffrent, in almost all cultures, and even ones that had no contact with eachother. This is an indicator of whether such a thing is truly taboo to all humans as a whole, or just to those that are taught so from birth.
What i'm saying is, before these were powerfull institutions, the story was much diffrent, in almost all cultures, and even ones that had no contact with eachother. This is an indicator of whether such a thing is truly taboo to all humans as a whole, or just to those that are taught so from birth.
"How can we justify spending so much on destruction and so little on life?" Matthew Good
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
"The white dove is gone, the one world has come down hard, so why not share the pain of our problems, when all around are wrong ways, when all around is hurt, i'll roll up in an odd shape and wait, untill the tide has turned.....with anger, i'm dead weight, i'm anchored"- IME, God Rocket (Into the Heart of Las Vegas) ^ Some say this song is about a terrorists thoughts before 911
"Pray for the sheep" Matt Good
"But it's alright, take the world and make it yours again" Matt Good
I felt it in the wind, and i saw it in the sky, i thought it was the end, i thought it was the 4th of July.
"Hold on, hold on children, your mother and father are leaving, hold on, hold on children your best freind's parents are leaving, leaving,.......*AHHH*! " - Death From Above - Black History Month
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Joe Cooler