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Interview with Raine

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Interview with Raine

Postby Long Jonny » 12/12/2004, 11:39 am

Hey all...

Here is an interview with Raine (from CBC) about his recent trip to Sudan.

CBC Interview

RAINE MAIDA INTERVIEW

Raine Maida (left), of the Canadian music group Our Lady Peace, spent 11 days in October 2004 in the western Darfur region of Sudan, on a fact-finding mission accompanied by War Child Canada's Dr. Eric Hoskins (right) & George Stroumboulopoulos. CBC News: Sunday talked to Maida about what he learned from his journey.

(Photos courtesy of War Child Canada)

Q: There’s the three of you at the end, and you are looking very tired...

MAIDA: Just being in Sudan - especially in Darfur - is very difficult. Basically for us, there was a culture shock there – the food was quite different – there wasn’t a lot of food, really. The heat was extreme, and I think initially the first few days everyone got very dehydrated. The rest of the trip we were working very long hours and travelling to the IDP (internally displaced people) camps. It was really tough to stay hydrated, and it was tough to catch up. And then at night, you’re sleeping in little tents, you know, trying to protect yourself from mosquitoes, and malaria, obviously, is the big concern, and just no one kind of slept. That, along with the emotional stress of what we were witnessing on a day to day basis, just made for pretty tough conditions.

I noticed that a lot of the NGOs, as well the people that we were staying with, actually in the UNDP camp, there was a team of three from the human rights portion of the UN , and one of the members couldn’t take it and had left - kind of quit - so it was tough on the NGOs as well. He was with a group, and the other two were women – it was just very tough living and working conditions...

Q: So you arrived in Khartoum - after how long a flight?

MAIDA: We flew to Frankfurt, and from Frankfurt to Cairo, and then to Khartoum - all that was easy, it was really waiting for the opportunity to get on a UN plane because there are only so many and the planes are small little propeller planes, and you just hope for the best. We were lucky, it was a couple of days later that we got a flight to Al Geneina in Western Dafour, right along the Chad border.. probably the most IDPs live around there...

Q: is that a region or is it the name of a town?

MAIDA: It’s a town – I mean they call them towns they are really more like villages there’s nothing, there’s no roads... you’ve got a jeep and a driver.

Q: How long were you there all together?

MAIDA: We were in Geneina for 5 or 6 days.

Q: In Sudan all together?

MAIDA: Probably about 10 days..

Q: What was the purpose of the trip? What was it that you set out to do?

MAIDA: Well, I had been to Iraq three years earlier with Eric and Sam from War Child, and that experience was, you know, life-changing - going to somewhere like that, especially with the background of the Middle East for me, it was quite complex to me and confusing, and especially after watching the Gulf War on television and then really not hearing about it for 10 years. So going there was quite amazing, and when Eric came up with the idea of wanting to start a program in Sudan, and I kind of asked him, you know, 'I would love to go on a trip,' and he jumped at the idea. The Iraq trip was quite different - we had probably 10 people with us, there were people filming, we had a producer – it was a bigger trip.

With this one, obviously, we wanted to keep things smaller because of funding and not waste a lot of money. So we just thought, if we could get someone else like George S., a well-respected friend of ours and kept it to just the three of us. And we actually had the same gentleman, Mike Nahall, we had in Iraq, that Eric knows very well, who has worked in the NGO community for 30 years. He joined us as well for logistics and administrative stuff. But it was really just the three of us there and it made it.. I find, the access we had to things was much different being in Sudan with a much smaller contingent of people, compared to Iraq. I think it allowed us to, not infiltrate, but to see the reality in a much closer view of Sudan ...

Q: You are sitting in the middle of a tent here..

MAIDA: You walk into these IDP camps, and I think when it’s only three people we were welcomed a little bit more, and it didn’t feel as imposing as bringing a big camera crew and all that type of stuff. It was real interesting we kind of felt like we belonged.

Q: How did people respond to you? Were they surprised that you were there?

MAIDA: The one thing that was fascinating to me when I got there, you know, you leave Canada thinking 'OK, this is a dire situation,' and obviously it had been in the news for a certain amount of time. And then, as most things these days, it fades away quickly, but we got there and I was really amazed at the contingent of humanitarian aid workers there. There was a lot of people - I had read that there was about 800 international and about 8,000 local NGOS.

So there’s this huge community, and they were mobilized - everyone’s all got their jeeps, everyone’s set up – even in the town of Al Geneina that I was in, everyone’s set up and working, they’re on schedule, they’re leaving the town at 8:00. There were stipulations, there was a curfew as well at night but at 8:00 a.m. everyone’s out hitting the fields. It takes an hour to drive 5 or 6 kilometers sometimes, because of the lack of roads, but people were doing it and, really, people were saving lives, and I was really amazed at that, and almost inspired.

Q: How were they saving lives? What were they doing?

MAIDA: Just getting the basic human needs – food, water, shelter, those things - they weren’t completely being met, but viewing what we did, and then talking to some UN people, it seemed they are running at 60 to 70% of those needs were being met, and you are talking about over a million and a half people displaced. Something that Eric said: when you get into these conflicts and crises around the world, the organizations and the UN and the combination don’t always get it right and it takes time. I mean, we saw what happened in Rwanda, obviously, but this time it really felt like they got it right.

So to be amongst that was an amazing thing, to be kind of dropped into that and seeing them do this, and watching the food drops, and even some of the programs that happen after that’s met that War Child Netherlands does, and something that War Child Canada is setting up to do is something called psycho-social training and, really, it’s youth focussed: once the children have, once the malnourishment has decreased and they have somewhere to sleep, you start getting into making these kids feel like they’re kids again and that’s an incredibly important thing, and quite new to the humanitarian cause.

Q: So War Child was going to meet a gap ...

MAIDA: That was one of the purposes of going there - to document and film as much of the crisis we could see, as well as find a program for War Child and how they can help the civilians. And in talking to the people that were running it and talking to Eric Hoskins: the simplest thing like skipping rope or kicking a soccer ball around or anything to get these kids smiling.

Q: So the kids were getting into it?

MAIDA: It was an interesting trip. As I was saying, when we first got there and saw how mobilized the humanitarian community was, like, I said I felt inspired. I felt like we were doing good, and it’s working. The Western reporting had kind of neglected to show that people were there and were helping, and it wasn’t this incredibly dire crisis. But the thing you realize, as you spent more time, and infiltrated the camps, and talked to some of the sheiks and elders, there was a huge problem with security - still - and I began to think this people have already been actually looking at the kids OK they’ve seen probably their mothers raped, their fathers killed systematically, their villages and towns burned.

They’re forced to move into the middle of the desert with nothing, leaving their towns. They’re situated in these IDP camps and yet they are still being attacked at night, the women are being raped when they try to leave just to go get fuel for food. ...

When we first got into Al Geneina and Western Dafur like I said the humanitarian was so mobilized it was really inspiring that they were actually saving lives. As time progressed and we walked through the villages and interview different people talk to the sheiks talk to the elders you start to realize that even though these people and definitely the young people had seen their mothers raped and their fathers systematically killed, their villages burned down, any source of income they had, whether sheep or goats or whatever it’s all gone they are in the middle of the desert with nothing – basically dying there was still these incredible concerns with security – it was still …. there was slaughters going on at night – the janjaweed and whoever else were still kind of inflitrating these the camps and still getting to the people and that became really disheartening where once at the beginning of the trip I had this hope and it kind of started to diminish because you kept seeing these people who were already terrorized and witness to this unspeakable sadness and it is still happening.

Q: Why is it still happening?

MAIDA: Well, it’s kind of an age old thing where for whatever reasons it takes a while to convince the world and definitely the Sudanese government that security is that important an issue. It seems that they are more than willing to let all the humanitarian aid workers in but when you start talking about sending troops in or soldiers it’s different it’s a much different process and the complexity of it seems to elevate:

When we were there there were peace talks going on and they had agreed to a certain number of AU, African Union troops. The truth of the matter as I found out as noble as the AU troops are they’re capacity to get around the Darfur region which is incredibly vast and difficult they really didn’t have the capacity and talking to some of the other soldiers that were there as observers – some Irish soldiers and some other people – the whole thing was it would take 50 times that to patrol that great a region so when that started to reveal itself I started thinking as a Canadian why aren’t we doing more – the US is doing incredible amounts out of the 200 million that’s been given to Sudan I know they’ve given 70% of the money, Canada has given 20 million but it just seemed that we crossed that threshold where on a humanitarian level some needs are being met and it’s great thing lives are being saved but that factor of security it shouldn’t loom over these people still.

Q: When you talk to people were they willing to speak about the dangers?

MAIDA: They were you know that was kind of the first things that we noticed that they wanted to talk about. It was really sad to talk to people that were working with War Child Netherlands, working with the children - these kids are fearful 24 hours a day.

Q: There’s an older lady – I think she’s a grandmother do you remember her. What did she tell you?

MAIDA: We had come across this really elderly lady, and through our interpreter, Mike N., she just told us that basically all of her sons were killed. So she’s stuck with the grandchildren – I think she had 3 or 4 sons and I think two of them had been killed after they were in the IDP camp. And it just shows another example of how, even today, they are being terrorized – I’m not an expert, but if that doesn’t reek of genocide, I’m not sure what does.

Q: What do you think should be done?

MAIDA: The complexity of the security issue.. it is difficult to say, I mean, from a naïve point of view, I think Canada should send 20 or 25 troops, just to maybe inspire other countries to maybe do the same, even more as observers. What I think would happen is that it would give some importance to the cause as support to the AU troops to see actual international soldiers there. It just might make the presence, not more threatening, but more serious, in terms of someone like the Janjaweed feeling like 'OK, this is not what it used to be - there is an international force here now.'

Q: Did you come to have an understanding of what was behind the conflict?

MAIDA: We tried to talk to anyone that would talk to us - whether it was government officials, people from the UN, people from CARE, people from Save the Children, any kind of NGO organization - and the consensus was that the government had armed this militia group called the Janjaweed, and what seemed to be happening - even while we were there - was the government had lost control of this group.

So you have this pseudo-military that is armed and funded, and now the government can’t control them. That is probably the reason that the killing is going on, because the government can’t stop it.

Q: What interest do the Janjaweed have in committing these crimes?

MAIDA: Well there’s two parts – obviously there’s a civil war based on race – the Blacks vs. the Arabs. The Blacks’ land rights are an incredibly complex issue because I think what they are finding now in the region of Western Sudan and Dafour is that there is potentially oil there – there’s oil in the South, and now with the prospect of oil, and possibly uranium, once again the chains of oil are causing people to die.

Q: Before we started talking, you mentioned that your perspective has been changing daily since you came back, and you have already described a change during the trip: you went from being hopeful to less hopeful …

MAIDA: Well, it’s very discourageing to leave a region like that. I remember George and I kind of sitting in our barracks, and it was probably a couple of days before we were supposed to leave. It just felt like we shouldn’t come home, we should stay there and help. The community of humanitarian workers, it’s a culture, you know, you get into that situation and you are helping people, and you feel like you’re making a difference. And in leaving, I just felt an overwhelming sense of guilt, you feel like you’re abandoning these people – even though we had only been there for 10 days. It’s just a very powerful force - it kind of overwhelms you, knowing that you are coming back to a country that is completely spoiled, compared to this kind of situation – yeah it was difficult.

Q: How was that different from going to Iraq?

MAIDA: I guess, in Iraq, you felt that there was some sort of infrastructure there, even though the dictatorship had really suppressed the people and the sanctions - especially how they had affected the children - were horrifying. But at one point it was a secular society – Baghad seemed to have been a beautiful city at one point … you get into Darfur and there’s nothing, absolutely nothing: the people, the children are so malnourhished, the camps they are living in, they can’t live in those camps forever – they need to be back in their villages – it’s definitely a different situation.

Q: How did you get involved with War Child initially?

MAIDA: My wife Chantal had met Sam and Eric Hoskins, and they had spoke about some sort of trip like that and basically, 4 or 5 years ago, you develop a friendship and a relationship, and the more I learned about War Child, the more it’s kind of grassroots in nature, and that was very appealing to me, I guess. As a parallel to music, when you’re starting in a band and travelling in a little van, trying to turn people on to your music – it’s kind of what they were about, you know. War Child Canada was very small, they didn’t have a lot of money, yet they were funding programs all around the world, and basically using local NGOs . You start to realize that these people worked really hard to start something, and I felt proud to know them.

And the other main factor was, you hear about the bureaucracies of the bigger organizations, and definitely you hear about where money was mispent and not going to the right places, and with War Child Canada, it always seemed like it was a very open policy – you can follow on their website, where every penny is going. And that kept my mind at ease, because I was always wary of giving money to other charities, but it’s a very solid grassroots Canadian organization.

Q: They focus on children, and you try and reach youth with your music ...

MAIDA: Absolutely, when I talk about the parallels between the two, definitely, it’s interesting, because our music taps into that generation and culture, and they try to as well. And I think when you are talking about changing the world, in idealistic terms, that’s who is going to change the world. So to get to them, and to make sure that you are paying attention to them, is quite important.

Q: You asked Angelina Jolie: how do you make kids care?

MAIDA: Yeah, I asked myself that – it’s something we discuss on the plane, sitting in intense heat at night in these camps – it’s something you talk about and the only thing you can do is provide the information. It’s no different than anything else - just make sure that it gets out there, and I think once it’s out there, hopefully enough people can connect to it and want to make a difference.

Q: You being the vehicle – will that help younger kids connect? Are you going out with this information now that you are back in Canada?

MAIDA: Definitely, you just tell your story - again, the parallels with music: you tell a couple of people that really dig the music and, you know, they tell a couple of friends, and it’s a much more organic and natural process. But I think it really works that way and we try to do the same with, whether through small concerts, doing interviews like this, trying to write articles for papers, posting stuff on our website, putting up links on the War Child to Our Lady Peace website - anything that can help spread the message we try to do.

Q: You’re a dad right? How old is your son?

MAIDA: He’s 10 months.

Q: So you haven’t been a dad that long: you weren’t when you went to Iraq and now you are - how was that?

MAIDA: It’s funny you ask the question because, the night before we left Chantal and my son were just kind of hanging out in Toronto and talking about the trip, and I think just two days before two CARE workers had been killed in Northern Dafour by a landmine that was set, and Eric had sent me all the security reports, and you read through these and you start to waiver a bit – it’s just human nature you know ‘why am I going to a region that’s in a conflict that’s potentially quite dangerous to my life when I have a new son, a wife and a career?' And really the defining factor in discussing it with Chantalle was, you know, seeing is believing - you can talk about these crises but for me to talk about it without going there and actually seeing it doesn’t hold a lot of weight for me personally. Secondly, I look at my son, and it’s kind of living by example, and actually going there for me, I think eventually, the fact that he’ll know that I was there and you know you have to get involved – it’s an important example and that was the defining factor for me.

Q: I don’t imagine you were able to call him while you were gone.

MAIDA: We had a satellite phone, so we talked to people back home a few times.

Q: Did you miss him?

MAIDA: You miss them, but you are so overwhelmed by what’s happening, like I was saying before, the culture in a crisis that is kind of surrounded by these living conditions that are incredibly severe, the community there is so tight. Just being there, you are just automatically accepted, the fact that you have made that journey to help these people live and work in these conditions, like I said, you just connect with people so quickly. So it’s an amazing thing to be subjected to that kind of stuff, you are so in the moment, it’s an incredible experience.

Q: Were you ever concerned for your own safety?

MAIDA: Yeah, there were definitely times –the town of Al Geneina, the Janjaweed had kind of set up in that little village, and they were pretty prominent, and you just kind of had to be careful. We wanted to interview them, but the more we tried and the more people we talked to, it just didn’t seem like a good idea, knowing that we had to stay in that same town.

Q: Did you actually see or encounter them?

MAIDA: You do. They definitely are armed, riding around in pickup trucks with the big mounted machine guns. We’d also heard stories that the government - knowing that the international community was starting to put pressure on the Sudanese government to disarm the Janjaweed or control them - had started to give them police uniforms or military uniforms, so it was really volatile, in the sense that you don’t actually know or trust the military or the local police, and you weren’t sure what to make of these people. So we kind of, after talking to different UN people and people that had lived in that town for awhile, we tried to keep our distance.


War Child Canada plans to provide these energy saving stoves to reduce the burden and risk of collecting firewood
One other a great thing we can talk about: there was this oven – an incredible thing – it was like going back in time, landing in this small village, it seemed like there were corners of the village there were people living like they did hundreds of years ago. And an interesting thing in the IDP camps was that the women were still cooking with the classic kind of three rock or three stone method, and in doing that, they burn a lot of fuel, which is wood. And the sad thing was that to get the wood they had to leave the camps, and they were being raped or killed.

Q: At all times of the day?

MAIDA: Yeah. It’s horrifying.

Q: And there were no men left to go out and get wood?

MAIDA: A lot of things disturbed me in viewing the situation, but I almost fell to my knees when I walked into a camp and there were no men between the ages of 18 and 50 – just the concept of that is terrifying but to actually witness it and just see that it was basically 90% of this was women and children, and then elderly men who were 55 or 60 – just to see that it had been that systematic – it goes along with former Secretary of State Colin Powell saying that it’s genocide. Why the UN hasn’t declared it genocide is disturbing, but the fact that the women were forced to go get fuel to cook for the children – an amazing thing that Eric Hoskins from War Child Canda had stumbled upon at the UN, I guess someone developed this - it’s kind of primitive but it’s a basic small oven where it’s much more energy efficient, so the women wouldn’t have to leave the camps as often. So this is something that I know that Eric is looking heavily into, and trying to provide for some of the camps – something as basic as that saves lives.
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