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Anarchy vs. The State

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Anarchy or The State?

Anarchy
14
61%
The State
9
39%
 
Total votes : 23

Postby lora » 9/23/2002, 4:57 pm

joe_canadian wrote:IIIIIIIIIIIIIII've got the coooooonch!!! [/shrill british accent]


poor piggy.
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Postby starvingeyes » 9/23/2002, 8:16 pm

Aerindipity wrote:Sample conversation with my anarchist friend:

Me: "So... what happens if somebody kills your brother? There'd be nobody to arbiter justice."

Her: "So? You just buy a gun and kill him."

"And this would somehow make it all okay?"

"Well, there wouldn't be any government to fuck it up, so... yeah."

"Great, then everybody'd be buying guns and shooting each other everytime somebody pissed them off, just because they can."

"No, because people aren't like that. We'd figure out a way to work it all out."

"We already have. It's called government."


read Robert Nozcicks "Anarch, State and Utopia". it's not that simple.

the fundamental complaint with the state that most anarchists (not the leftist kind, mind you) have is not it's pragmatic applications, but the moral foundation on which it is based. all political power is based on fundamental coercive force. you don't have a choice in how you deal with the state or how it deals with you, it forces you to obey it's laws, many of which are not acceptable.

complying with the states rules is not voluntary, as a result, it is fundamentally immoral.
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Postby Corey » 9/24/2002, 6:16 am

So anarchy is morrally wonderful, sure I'll give you that. Although that is merely an opinion, there is no golden rule that determines what is morrally right and morrally wrong. Anyways that's besides the point. You cannot choose a system because it is good at ONE thing. You have to consider all the factors. In my opinion, there are more black checkers on the scale than red.
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Postby fluttergirl » 9/24/2002, 7:11 am

Aerindipity wrote:"Great, then everybody'd be buying guns and shooting each other everytime somebody pissed them off, just because they can."


like they do here in Texas? :mrgreen: sweet!
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Postby fluttergirl » 9/24/2002, 7:11 am

ummmm, I was kidding, btw. :nod: :freak:
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Postby stlloki » 9/24/2002, 7:54 am

The idea of anarchy much like the principals of a utopian society is a great concept. People doing what they want, when they want. Where goods are produced and services rendered not for money, but because people think that everyone else is providing something in return. However, the idea of anarchy is a contradictory idea in and of itself. Though the concept suggests, free thinking and no central governing body, the congregation of “like thinking” minds who sit around deciding what’s best for the group forms that governing body. Sure the collective may have equal say in what goes on in the community, but when it runs into a person or a group of people who decide that some task is not something that they are willing to participate in, are they not “forced” to undertake that task for the better good of the community? Even though that certain task may be “rotated” amongst the group? IF that is done, the concept has already contradicted itself because one of the main ideas of anarchism is living your life without interfering with other. Living your life free from coercion and domination while not imposing your will on others.

Hell, I’d be all for it if it truly could work. But it could only work if humans were not inherently evil. As Orwel said, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. With our cognitive abilities, someone WILL abuse any type of upper hand that they get. I just don't think humans are tolerant enough for anarchy to work.
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Postby starvingeyes » 9/24/2002, 8:30 am

CoreyRIT wrote:So anarchy is morrally wonderful... In my opinion, there are more black checkers on the scale than red.


the state is fundamentally immoral. i cannot possible imagine a bigger black checker then that. therefore, even if anarchy had a host of other problems, perhaps even more then benefits, the state would still be unaccetable.

a minimal or ultraminimal state can arise from the state of nature but it would be very different from the one we know today.

stloki - i believe people would create private institutions to fill the role of the government.
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Postby One-Eye » 9/24/2002, 9:23 am

fluttergirl wrote:ummmm, I was kidding, btw. :nod: :freak:


.... or were you...? 8O

Oh, and I'm with stloki. Anarchy's great in theory, but it would never work due to human nature. Yes, the state forces us to do things against our will, but in my opinion, I'd rather be forced to pay taxes and drive the speed limit than live in constant fear of what people are capable of when there's nothing to stop them from doing what they will...
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Postby Corey » 9/24/2002, 9:27 am

Like stloki says, as soon as someone has gained enough power they could force you into their "plan". Wouldn't building institutions to prevent such occurences prevent people from doing what they want again contradicting the "morals" of Anarchy?

And what about greed? The idea of anarchy is that everything is controlled by the dollar. Live by the dollar, under the dollar. Embezzlement, laundering, etc etc would be serious issues under an Anarchy. Greedy corporations cannot be prevented from keeping money out of the hands of the people who deserve it.

Foreign policy would also be a course of concern. As much as you may hate military, a defensive military would be necessary to preserve your anarchy from militant nations. Trade too is important and someone has to be in control of imports and exports with friendly nations. It is impossible to be self-sufficient.

I honetly don't believe that the state tells you what to do. The state is molded by the people. It is an ever-changing entity. It evolves every year by the people. The only way it will not evolve is by not interacting with it. If the system does not improve it is the people's fault, not the state's. This is why generation X gets so much criticism. Instead of blaming the government for its faults you should be blaming yourself. If you don't like the way things are then you fight to change them. It is your patriotic duty.
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Postby starvingeyes » 9/24/2002, 11:09 am

Aerindipity wrote:I'd rather be forced to pay taxes and drive the speed limit than live in constant fear of what people are capable of when there's nothing to stop them from doing what they will...


what prevents this now? laws are not preventive, they are punitive. private institutions could easily fill this role. just look at the mafia. they make rules, and people are very reluctant to break them because of fear of retaliation.

a private firm set up to protect people and their belongings could easily fill the role of policy, and best of all, it's voluntary. :)

Corey - the 'moral' of anarchy is that we should all live free from agression. it's not anti-institutional. that's just stupid.

once again, the government does nothing to prevent greedy corporations from hoarding money and proceeding in shady business practices, in fact, it many cases it helps them. enron, for example.

or what about those guys who invented licotine? the lollipop quit-smoking aid. they were shut down beacause they couldn't afford to have their product tested by the FDA. watch some major pharmaceutical company who can afford the tests pirate the idea and make millions.

this kind of government sponsored competition crushing wouldn't occur without a government.

the single biggest knock on anarchism is that it is global. no foreign policy is therefore needed.

if you don't believe that the state tells you what to do, go into your backyard, take out yourbong and smoke yourweed, purchased with your money and ingested into your body. o wait, here comes your friendly police officer, agent of the state, telling you what you can do with your possesions.
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Postby stlloki » 9/24/2002, 11:26 am

if you don't believe that the state tells you what to do, go into your backyard, take out yourbong and smoke yourweed, purchased with your money and ingested into your body. o wait, here comes your friendly police officer, agent of the state, telling you what you can do with your possesions.


That is one thing that aggrivates me. The law tells me that I can't protect myself or my property? What kind of crap is that! You're driving your car down the road, you stop at a stop sign and you get jacked, BUT you can't protect yourself because THAT would be against the law. WTF??? Someone breaks into your house intending to cause bodily harm to you or your loved ones and you shoot him...YOU go to jail...WTF??? Screw it! I still carry my pistol on me when I go to bad areas. I keep my tactical shotgun within reach at home. You damn right I do.

Sorry, rant over...
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Postby fluttergirl » 9/24/2002, 12:05 pm

stlloki wrote:That is one thing that aggrivates me. The law tells me that I can't protect myself or my property? What kind of crap is that! You're driving your car down the road, you stop at a stop sign and you get jacked, BUT you can't protect yourself because THAT would be against the law. WTF??? Someone breaks into your house intending to cause bodily harm to you or your loved ones and you shoot him...YOU go to jail...WTF??? Screw it! I still carry my pistol on me when I go to bad areas. I keep my tactical shotgun within reach at home. You damn right I do.

Sorry, rant over...


in Texas if someone is on your property at night and you suspect them of burglary you can legally shoot them. I have a license to carry a concealed handgun. it's nice to know that I can protect myself and mine. if anybody tried to carjack me today I would blast them through the goddamn car door with my .45 and not even blink an eye. :nod:
xo - Suzie

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Su7an: I bet Duncan can fly. He's just holding out on showing that skill off. 8O
joe_canadian: Yeah, one day at a concert he'll just stop playing and be like
"Yo muthafuckas! Wheeeeee!" and zoom off into the horizon
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Postby One-Eye » 9/24/2002, 12:14 pm

:mrgreen: Go Suzie!
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Postby stlloki » 9/24/2002, 12:19 pm

fluttergirl wrote:if anybody tried to carjack me today I would blast them through the goddamn car door with my .45 and not even blink an eye. :nod:


I am seriously turned on right now 8O too bad you're already married! :P
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Postby fluttergirl » 9/24/2002, 12:20 pm

:wtf: :freak: :lol: :P
xo - Suzie

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Su7an: I bet Duncan can fly. He's just holding out on showing that skill off. 8O
joe_canadian: Yeah, one day at a concert he'll just stop playing and be like
"Yo muthafuckas! Wheeeeee!" and zoom off into the horizon
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Postby 2+2=5 » 10/3/2002, 8:31 pm

[glow=red]WHOOPA![/glow]


I was then to be part of the mystery,
to love and be loved. Let's just hope that is enough.
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Postby Bandalero » 10/3/2002, 10:43 pm

i picked the state cause anarchy is too trendy. everyone wants to live in anarchy and i want to be different.
Whenever death may surprise us,
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.


Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
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Postby starvingeyes » 10/4/2002, 1:38 pm

anti-state.com
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Postby Endymion » 10/4/2002, 1:49 pm

You're always going to have someone bigger telling you what to do. And the nature of life is pretty much that there's always someone bigger than you at something else, even if you're technically the most powerful person in the world.

I don't bother to think about stuff like this, anymore, because there's not really any answer. Most debates don't have an answer, actually. Eventually, I just had to stop and say, "Fuck it," ya know?

Not worth it. I'm happy, that's all that matters, because everything is pretty much a byproduct of my serenity, at least in my life.
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Postby happening fish » 10/4/2002, 2:27 pm

good point josh
awkward is the new cool
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