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OCCUPY WALL STREET - October 15th 2011

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Postby DG » 10/15/2011, 9:54 pm

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I wasn't a big fan of the organizers of OccupyMN. They kept making a big deal about tents on the grounds than the actual cause of OWS. The authorities that be said that they didn't want tents because they couldn't see what was going on inside for safety of everyone

What did the protesters do? Make a bunch of makeshift "Transparent Structures", which were tents made of clear plastic.


Got some video. Haven't scrubbed through it yet. Hopefully I got some good stuff for TW. Looking forward to seeing the outcome.


EDIT: And Now the police are tearing down the tents. If they just would have followed the rules they agreed to... you know, the no tents rule. Thanks god I was only there for a few hours.
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Postby ClumsyGirl618 » 10/16/2011, 8:35 pm

Raine discussing the Occupy Movement on City TV: Ignore the typo in his name on their site. oops. lol


http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/videos/161364

P.S. He looks tired...
“Music doesn’t have the power to change the world. What music does is it changes people, & that changes the world, so to say that music doesn’t change people anymore is just ridiculous. It does everyday. It doesn’t have to be on a political or social level. You could be feeling shitty & it makes you happy & if that’s all it does, it’s changing the world. It’s making it a better place.” ~ Raine Maida

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What are you protesting?

Postby emlapal » 10/16/2011, 10:16 pm

When I look at the Occupy Wallstreet protesters what I, along with most Americans, see people who are, for the most part, either lost, lonely or uninformed. If you asked 10 different protesters why they were there you'd get about 9 different answers. There is no cohesive message. Bascally if you are unhappy about anything, just show up.

These relatively small protests represent not the 99% but rather the 1 or 2% of folks who simply want handouts. Raine states in his interview that these protests have something to do with the environment. Huh? They do? How does Occupy Wallstreet, which was supposidly a movement to redistribute wealth suddenly become a tree huggers love fest?

Raine also speaks of folks who have large student loans to pay back. Should we feel sorry for them? Should others pay the money back for them? My guess is that when the signed the paperwork for the loans nobody was holding a gun to their head. Meanwhile he states the others are worried about taking loans for college; if you feel you are not going to be able to pay back the money, don't take the loan. It's that simple. Or, take the loan, work really hard, pay the money back or do the best you can to try to but don't whine about it.

The bottom line here is that large corporations are not the problem. Large corporations employ thousands and thousands of workers in most cases. Where would we be without them? Jobless...that's where. What these protesters lack is an education in basic economics. They see the "pie" as finite. It is not finite. The pie will grow if people are willling to work hard enough to make it grow. These misguided folks belive that some of the "rich" people should have their hard earned wealth taken from them and have it given to those who have less. Anybody see a problem with this type of thinking? First of all, it is stealing. Secondly, wouldn't it be better to let these "evil" corporations make even more money but while doing so, have them hire more people and eventually increase wages as profits rise? What good would it do to topple say, GM? Not much...

And as a big OLP fan, I hate to say it, but my guess is big corporations proly helped OLP get where they are now.

Following is a website for taxpayers:

http://the53.tumblr.com/
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Re: What are you protesting?

Postby faninor » 10/16/2011, 11:56 pm

emlapal wrote:These relatively small protests represent not the 99% but rather the 1 or 2% of folks who simply want handouts. Raine states in his interview that these protests have something to do with the environment. Huh? They do? How does Occupy Wallstreet, which was supposidly a movement to redistribute wealth suddenly become a tree huggers love fest?

I think you're wrong, I think the basis of the protest is that the government should represent the majority. They're tired of the importance that corporations (or rather, the rich people who own them) get so much special attention and have more "say" than citizens. Bank bailouts are one example of this, but the answer is not through more handouts. But, the "first phase" of this movement is not very well organized so yeah some people seem pretty uninformed. On the other hand, I still can't quite figure out what the Tea Party represents based on their actions...


emlapal wrote:What these protesters lack is an education in basic economics. They see the "pie" as finite. It is not finite. The pie will grow if people are willling to work hard enough to make it grow. These misguided folks belive that some of the "rich" people should have their hard earned wealth taken from them and have it given to those who have less. Anybody see a problem with this type of thinking?

As earlier, I think this movement is more generally about proper representation than about money. But are you suggesting that there's an infinite money supply??? If that's the case you could stand to brush up on your basic economics too. ;)
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Postby ClumsyGirl618 » 10/17/2011, 6:15 pm

Our Lady Peace facing backlash from some fans after supporting Occupy

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/lady-peace-fac ... 00573.html
“Music doesn’t have the power to change the world. What music does is it changes people, & that changes the world, so to say that music doesn’t change people anymore is just ridiculous. It does everyday. It doesn’t have to be on a political or social level. You could be feeling shitty & it makes you happy & if that’s all it does, it’s changing the world. It’s making it a better place.” ~ Raine Maida

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Postby todddowney » 10/17/2011, 7:10 pm

For Maida, he sees Occupy as primarily a call for transparency and accountability for those in power.

"This is just about having a voice and not letting the policy-makers who are in bed with the bigger corporations dictate what happens to democracy," said Maida, who said that Our Lady Peace has almost finished work on a new album but he isn't sure when it will be released.

Hahahaha!
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Postby Trustworthy » 10/17/2011, 11:02 pm

occupy wall street (dreamed up by adbusters in vancouver actually) is where this movement spawned from, now it has evolved into the pursuit of global change - anyone who thinks this is about giving handouts to lazy people - or taking down big corporations and crushing capitalism is just ignorant and making a sweeping generalization based on the same tired rhetoric coming out of most of the major media outlets.

If you have been to an occupy event you would see that 98% of anything you have heard in the media is complete and utter bullshit - these events brought people from all walks of life, from all economic backgrounds, all races, all colours and all creeds out for one reason - to affect change on this planet, change in anything they feel needs it - this movement is not about picking a side, or picking political stance, it is about standing up for what you believe is an injustice taking place. Its about saying fuck apathy and getting off your asses to take a stand and let the world know you have issues with how it is run - whether that be losing 50% of the worth of your house because of an overvalued market and sketchy opportunistic loan - a loan from the same institutions that crushed the economy and the hopes and dreams of millions on a global level - whether it be in rgards to mega corps raping the enviroment with little or no accountably, whether it be taking issue with the plight of native americans / first nation people - whether it be because of high tuition rates and the fact that in order to get a good job you need good schooling but to get good schooling you need a good job, owhether its the fact that a good number of relgular joes paid more tax last year than some fortune 500 companies - or maybe it s because we are brought up to believe we all need to have a family, a home, a car and live" the dream", even though once you do there is no end in sight to the debt and financial burdens that will eventually be forced on you simply because the powers at be don't have a fucking clue what they are doing any more.

Honestly, anyone who cannot see the world is a really fucked up place, see that the divide has become bigger than it ever has been in human history, unemployment is the highest it has ever been since the great depression, all while select individuals and corporations are making more money than has ever made since the dawn of time - and then has the gaul to not take issue but instead just sit on their computer spewing the same bullshit they heard on big media is 100% part of the problem! Apathy got us to this point, occupy is about finally doing something about it and taking a stand.

It is easy to sit back and say "get a better job, don't be lazy, dont have kids if you cant afford them, dont go to school if you cant afford it" etc etc - but by saying that you are stifling freedom of choice and expression - we should all be able to live out our dreams and have the best chance at life without having to worry about how some system based on backroom deals, lobbyists, imaginary social/economic/ job security and virtually non existent reserves will fuck us over in the future.

Anyway, I have spent my last 5 days dealing with this and to be honest I'm getting kinda sick of it - i know why the guys did this and I know why i am backing them on this full force. The motives are pure and just like any of the other 7 billion people on this planet, they are well with in their rights to stand up and express their views, concerns and frustration with this world, the very same world we all live in, without being slammed for doing so...in reality it's just an opinion and some of the things I have read and seen directed towards OLP in regards to their support of this movement and voicing their opinions are simply disturbing.

Like I said any negativity that comes of this is 100% based on ignorance, there is no other explanation and there is nothing that can be said to the contrary. Passing judgement on ANYONE based on their beliefs, opinions or expression is about the most dangerous and usless thing we as human beings can do.

it's ok to disagree and have your own opinion, hell that's what a big part of this whole movement is about - but ostracizing and promoting hateful messaging and hurtful sentiments based on another individuals is in short, fucking pathetic.


so yeah, now you got my take on it :) weeeeee! I shall resume fighting the good fight and leave the political banter to bill mahr :)
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Postby emlapal » 10/18/2011, 9:50 pm

Trustworthy said:

Like I said any negativity that comes of this is 100% based on ignorance, there is no other explanation and there is nothing that can be said to the contrary.

Then he said:

it's ok to disagree and have your own opinion

So let me gget this straight...if I may:

I am allowed to have an opinion but if it is different from yours it is completely ignorant and nothing can be said to the contrary. Hmmm...something about that sounds kinda...odd. So what you are saying then is I'm ignorant but you are allowing me to have an opinion anyway? Cool....thanks for that. (So much for open mindedness of the Occupiers).

Since you are allowing the ignorant to have an opinion, I'll take full advantage. In your diatribe, eloquente as it was, you never mention a goal or how to achieve a goal. Sure, you are out there protesting things you dislike but what do you expect to come of it? Really, what are your expectations? Are you expecting the corporations to shut down? Should the CEO's vacate their positions and walk out into the street and hand you piles of money as they tell their 25,000 employees they not longer have jobs because a few thousand whiners don't like how things are going for them?

The truth of the matter is that the Occupiers (hey..I thought libs hated occupiers) are causing more problems then they are helping to resolve...which is zero. Where do we start? How about the millions it is costing taxpayers in overtime pay for the police to control these mobs. Do you have an answer for how you are going to pay that bill? How about the crime that is taking place across the country by the Occupiers? Want some examples? Here ya go:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/132064518.html
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/132064518.html
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manh ... rGPCaZaLRK

As for the last story, you can not help but laugh at the irony here; people who are supposedly protesting greed are getting ripped off by fellow protesters and moreover, their laptops etc. are getting stolen too...you know the laptops made by evil corporations like Dell and Apple. By the way, it must suck for all the Occupiers to have to bow down to the corporations to Tweet, post and email on their corporate made devices, while they are wearing their Nike's and sipping on Starbucks as they wait for the next McDonald's run.
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Postby DG » 10/18/2011, 10:41 pm

I am allowed to have an opinion but if it is different from yours it is completely ignorant and nothing can be said to the contrary.


No. What he means, is that if you get mad and upset that the band is supporting it and turning it into a negative thing is ignorant. Such as the people on facebook who are "never listening to this band again, how could they express they're opinions!"

you know the laptops made by evil corporations like Dell and Apple. By the way, it must suck for all the Occupiers to have to bow down to the corporations to Tweet, post and email on their corporate made devices, while they are wearing their Nike's and sipping on Starbucks as they wait for the next McDonald's run.


What other option's do they have?
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Postby todddowney » 10/19/2011, 11:40 am

There's still going to be a record, right?
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Postby LifeRiot » 10/19/2011, 11:47 am

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one's skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers' healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people's lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts. *

To the people of the world,

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.
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Postby faninor » 10/19/2011, 12:31 pm

emlapal wrote:Trustworthy said:

Like I said any negativity that comes of this is 100% based on ignorance, there is no other explanation and there is nothing that can be said to the contrary.


Yes. Absolutely. As pointed out by myself earlier in this thread and by OLP on FightTheGoodFight.ca this movement is meant to express that people are unhappy with too many of our elected representatives being too much an advocate for corporations and financial interests, and not enough an advocate for the majority, everyday people, and social interests. It is a call for transparency and accountability.

If you are arguing against the Occupy movement as a whole, you are arguing against the concepts of transparency and accountability. Without transparency, every day citizens are ignorant to what really happens in the government. You are essentially arguing for ignorance, which seems not very rational at all. Trusty's assumption that your arguments are a based on misunderstanding seem pretty solid to me. I challenge you to take a step back, forget about whatever grievances you've heard from individual Occupiers, and tell me how increased transparency and accountability in our government is a bad thing. It is good for everyone except for the corrupt.

emlapal wrote:Then he said:

it's ok to disagree and have your own opinion

So let me gget this straight...if I may:

I am allowed to have an opinion but if it is different from yours it is completely ignorant and nothing can be said to the contrary. Hmmm...something about that sounds kinda...odd. So what you are saying then is I'm ignorant but you are allowing me to have an opinion anyway? Cool....thanks for that. (So much for open mindedness of the Occupiers).


It's fine to have an opinion, but you've not yet expressed yourself in a way that shows you really understand the underlying concepts here. You're latching onto specific bits and pieces that some Occupiers agree with and throwing out the whole concept that maybe there's a bit too much corruption in Washington, and maybe we should be addressing that issue.

emlapal wrote:Sure, you are out there protesting things you dislike but what do you expect to come of it? Really, what are your expectations? Are you expecting the corporations to shut down? Should the CEO's vacate their positions and walk out into the street and hand you piles of money as they tell their 25,000 employees they not longer have jobs because a few thousand whiners don't like how things are going for them?


They expect their elected officials to see what they support and what they do not support, and to be advocates for them. CEOs can do whatever they feel like, but I know many folks are ticked off that the same banking institutions that required bailouts still were able to give their top levels of management soaring salaries, bonuses, and perks -- the same management that allowed so much sub-prime lending to happen under their noses with no consideration about the tremendous risk they were creating.

An individual who takes a loan to buy a house they can't possibly afford just because the bank approves the loan should be blaming themselves in the end -- but at the same time the banks that loaned out trillions of dollars on a bubbling sector hold a lot of the responsibility turning a bubble in one sector into an overwhelming crisis and crushing the entire economy. The banks should have regulated themselves better, or else the government should have.


emlapal wrote:The truth of the matter is that the Occupiers (hey..I thought libs hated occupiers) are causing more problems then they are helping to resolve...which is zero. Where do we start? How about the millions it is costing taxpayers in overtime pay for the police to control these mobs. Do you have an answer for how you are going to pay that bill?


So anything is bad now if it costs taxpayers money? I think you're sidestepping but I'll follow you.

I've known a several police officers, stand-up guys working hard to support their families. I'm sure a lot of them appreciate getting some overtime pay -- especially in circumstances where it's not too likely for someone to pull a gun on them. As for how we will foot the bill? Whatever this is costing is just a drop in the bucket compared to the national debt. I would be perfectly happy to pay my fair share, I think taxes need to be increased across the board and spending needs to be decreased. But that is a job for Congress, and I am disappointed that they have not done a better job

emlapal wrote:people who are supposedly protesting greed are getting ripped off by fellow protesters and moreover, their laptops etc. are getting stolen too...you know the laptops made by evil corporations like Dell and Apple. By the way, it must suck for all the Occupiers to have to bow down to the corporations to Tweet, post and email on their corporate made devices, while they are wearing their Nike's and sipping on Starbucks as they wait for the next McDonald's run.


It doesn't suck so much. I'm able to Tweet, post, and email without much hassle, because ISPs are regulated by the FCC, and are required to have transparent network management practices, and to provide for any legal usage to be protected from being blocked and from being unreasonably deferred/deprioritized. In other words, the FCC is protecting the interests of the majority. More of this please!
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Postby xjsb125 » 10/19/2011, 12:55 pm

The two things that continue to really piss me off, are comments about education and employment.

Education is a human right? Education is a daily process. One certainly has the capability to obtain as much knowledge as they desire using the resources available. However, gaining that education may come with a price. Basic economics: There's no such thing as a free lunch. One thing I do agree with, the education system is fucked up. Just estimating, I probably paid $8000 maximum for 4 years of college education. I feel like the program I completed is just as good as the similar programs my friends paid $8000 a semester for. The pursuit of higher education in a formal setting, shouldn't be free. Go ask those professors and faculty if they'd do it for nothing. They might say they would, but when they had no roof over their heads, it would be a different story. It comes at a price. I could go on a different rant about that price, but that's for another topic.

As for work, and stripping the rights away for workers to bargain for better wages, let's cut the bullshit. Unions are pissed off that they are on their last legs. At their creation, labor unions provided the needed change in the country's labor process. Today, they are no longer needed. Look at how many lawsuits are taken against employers daily, or sit through an unemployment hearing. There are laws in place to protect them. Workers don't have a need for someone to take their hard earned money and do next to nothing for them. Labor unions destroyed the US automotive industry. Granted auto workers make an outstanding hourly wage, but that wage caused their employers to work in the negative financially. Their greed for wealth at the expense of their employer, caused the American consumer to take their business elsewhere. When those companies shut down production, or dropped an entire brand from their line, the people to blame were the ones who stood on the assembly line and signed that union card on their first day.

As for bargaining for better wages, I don't know about other companies, but every single person I've ever hired in the last 8 years that I've had that opportunity, they know exactly what their job description is, and how much it pays. They make the choice to work at that wage. If you accept an employers money, then you can accept the work asked of you. If you can't, seek other career opportunities.

The general disorganization of it all is frustrating. So many groups failing to see how they fit into the big picture. They all want their agenda addressed, not realizing how it might affect the person out on the street with them. In this unity is chaos. The true democratic process would be to unite, then organize, and develop the plan for change.

I've often wondered, how many of those people were registered voters? If they even participated in their elections? That many people using the democratic process in a united, organized, planned method could invoke change. It might be one piece at a time, but it could work.

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. As for the band, it's something they believe in, and aren't backing down on, so good for them. I don't love them less, or have anything bad at all to say about their involvement. I'm just ready for new music!
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Postby xjsb125 » 10/19/2011, 1:08 pm

And yes, that's me clinging on to bits and pieces. :nam:

Individual accountability is the ultimate corrupter of all. Because we are all brought up with different standards of morals and ethics, our personal accountability to staying within those lines, if any lines at all, differs.

As for transparency, yes, the people should be able to know what is going on with the people they selected to represent them.

The people they selected to represent them. Interesting.

The great part of this discussion is that you can take both sides and run either way with it. Which is great because we haven't had it in so long here. I'm just waiting on the final explosion that comes with all political based discussion!
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Postby Trustworthy » 10/20/2011, 1:09 am

emlapal - why dont you make your 3rd post on here AFTER you read this ;)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/keith-boy ... 19707.html

Should clear some things up - and yes I called you ignorant, because like I said, to say anything negative about this movement means one of three things:

1. you don't want to be considered part of the 99% (which you are)

2. You have not bothered to educate yourself about this movement.

3. You are a troll and got me hook line and sinker :)


Bottom line is I was there, I saw what it is all about, I talked to people & I listened to people - It was only then that I decided to support it and I will back my friends, family, colleagues and anyone else on this planet 100% who also does.

If you think everything is fine and dandy - fine - but simply opening your eyes should be all the proof you need to see that is not the case.

If you really wanna grasp how bad things have gotten then just take a trip into your local bank to talk to a financial planner and ask him/her what you are going to have to do in order to sustain yourself once you can no longer work - that should give you an indication of where we are headed and what is in store for ALL OF US in the not so distant future.

Like I said apathy got us here...the only way out of this mess is to take a stand, start giving a shit and at least TRY to make things better by letting the powers that be know that these social and economic injustices will no longer be tolerated.
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Postby Trustworthy » 10/20/2011, 1:39 am

oh and btw I drank the shit outta some delicious starbucks and even ate a nice lunch in a trendy restaurant that day :) im such a hypocrite right?

Wrong! - That has NOTHING to do what this movement is about - if I wasn't taxed through the roof and if my wage/worth mirrored the rate of inflation I could be eating out and buying oodles of delicious starbucks products more often! but alas I cant afford to so I shall continue to work 1/3 of the year for free while the govt spends my tax dollars on shit I never asked for, wanted, or said was ok to spend it on...all while giving these mega corp monopolies we have in this country tax breaks, incentives and what amounts to be a free ride to fuck anyone over with little or no accountability at all :)

Anyway, I shall now go Occupy my bed and protest being awake :)

Fight The Good Fight crazy monkey people - oh and keep an eye out this week, you might just be a tad bit surprised ;)
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Postby xjsb125 » 10/21/2011, 5:00 pm

I'm moving this to the political discussion forum, where it is better suited.
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