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Criminal Responsibility and Mental Wellness

Postby Johnny » 3/5/2009, 1:25 pm

http://edmonton.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local ... montonHome


Li not criminally responsible for murder
Updated: Thu Mar. 05 2009 09:27:10

The Canadian Press

A man who believed he was following God's orders when he stabbed and beheaded a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus in Manitoba has been found not criminally responsible.
Justice John Scurfield said Vince Li's attack on Tim McLean last summer was "grotesque" and "barbaric" but "strongly suggestive of a mental disorder."

"He did not appreciate the actions he committed were morally wrong. He believed he was acting in self-defence," Scurfield said Thursday.

Both Crown and defence psychiatrists had testified at Li's trial that he was suffering from schizophrenia and believed God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of evil.

Li was charged with second-degree murder but pleaded not guilty.

He will be institutionalized without a criminal record and will be reassessed every year by a mental health review board to determine if he is fit for release into the community.

The decision brings an end to a trial that barely lasted two days and only heard from two witnesses -- both psychiatrists -- who testified Li is mentally ill and didn't realize that killing McLean was wrong.

McLean's family has dismissed the trial as a "rubber stamp" that is allowing Li to get away with murder. They are vowing to now turn their attention to fighting the law that allows people who are found not criminally responsible to be released into the community once they are deemed well without serving a minimum sentence in jail.

Carol deDelley, McLean's mother, said her son didn't die in vain. His death highlights concerns about the justice system, she said.

"Now people are aware that there is a problem."

That Li killed the 22-year-old carnival worker -- brutally stabbing him dozens of times, beheading him and then mutilating his body -- was never in question at the trial.

An agreed statement of facts read out in court detailed how Li sat next to McLean after he gave him a smile and asked how he was doing. It was after McLean closed his eyes to listen to music on his headphones that Li said he heard the voice of God.

"Suddenly the sunshine came in the bus and the voice said, 'Quick. Hurry up. Kill him and then you'll be safe,"' Li told one of his psychiatrists. "It was so quick, such an angry voice, and I had to do what it said. I was told that if I didn't listen to the voice, I would die immediately."

Li ignored other horrified passengers as he repeatedly stabbed the young man, who unsuccessfully fought for his life.

When the bus pulled over near Portage la Prairie, Man., Li was engrossed with stabbing and mutilating McLean's body. Passengers fled the bus and stood outside.

Li tried numerous times to leave the bus but he was locked inside and continued methodically carving up McLean's body. Police said McLean's body parts were found throughout the bus in plastic bags, although part of his heart and both eyes were never found and were presumed eaten by Li.

The victim's ear, nose and tongue were found in his pocket.

God told him to cut up McLean and scatter his body parts around the bus, Li said.

"God told me to do it. Otherwise it would come back to life very quick and kill me. So I cut it up to make sure he couldn't come back to life ... God told me to cut off his head, so I did."

Li tried to escape from the bus through a window and was taken into custody.

After that, blood smeared on his face from the attack, he politely apologized to police and pleaded with officers to take his life.

With files from Canadian Press and CTV Winnipeg






As a Criminal Psychology Major, I disagree with today's decision whole heartidely. It goes against everything that our justice sytem should stand for.
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Postby MindsOnLoan » 3/5/2009, 1:33 pm

I honestly don't even have words for this. I heard a bit of it from a buddy of mine, as he told me that this guy had beheaded a man on a bus... but I didn't heard all the gruesome details. That's just sickening.
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Postby myownsatellite » 3/5/2009, 1:36 pm

I can't believe they could consider letting him back into society after doing something like that.

Also, if he was begging the police to take his life, why was he afraid of dying if he let the guy live? There's something seriously wrong here.

It's possible what he did was caused by schizophrenia or other related mental disorders, it's been known to happen and he's certainly displaying signs...but simply institutionalizing him with the possibility of release is just as insane as he is. Maybe he belongs in a hospital. Maybe he is crazy (well, you'd have to be crazy to do something like that), but he should NEVER be allowed back into society after doing something like that.
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Postby Neil » 3/5/2009, 3:21 pm

The problem with the modern justice system is there are too many loop-holes. I'm not going to deny the possibility that this man was mentally troubled because that's clearly a possibility.

However, Li decapitated this man. Not only did he murder, but he took it to the 2nd degree and beheaded and mutilated his body. This is clearly an act of rage, and I have a heard time believing that he did not have control over himself.

What's also clearly disturbing is how quickly this trial went. Two days?! It's disgusting that clearly the prosecution did not show up to this trial.
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Postby nikki4982 » 3/5/2009, 4:14 pm

Yeeeeeeeeeah... the fact that he could be released into society's really my only problem with this. Clearly, he was not of right mind when he did this, so institutionalizing him seems like a good idea. But if he's ever let loose on the public again? That's just... terrifying, to say the least.
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Postby Random Name » 3/5/2009, 4:49 pm

I'd rather put my faith in doctors than prison guards.
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Take apart your head
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Postby saman » 3/5/2009, 7:30 pm

i wouldn't mind having both on my side
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Postby myownsatellite » 3/5/2009, 7:53 pm

Yes, but I honestly don't trust a doctor who would say this person has been rehabilitated and is considered "cured." Especially with what they described in the article, there's no "cure" for schizophrenia. And even if he's released with medication, there's no guarantee he'll take it, and then who knows what he'll do.

He needs to be locked away in a mental hospital for the rest of his life. He is a danger to society and nothing will ever convince me otherwise.
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Postby nikki4982 » 3/6/2009, 1:46 am

Yeah, that's really super scary. :uhh:
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<font color="#50B4B3">Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do, nothing to kill or die
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a brotherhood of man, imagine all the people, sharing all the <font color="#FFFFFF">world</font>...</font>

<font color="#B1DFDE">You may say I'm a <font color="#FFFFFF">dreamer</font>, but I'm not the only one, I hope
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Postby Random Name » 3/6/2009, 1:24 pm

Canada doesn't lock away people forever until they die. We don't put people to death and a life sentence is at it's maximum 25 years and then parole. The whole point of the judicial system is to place people in a correctional facility. The point is not to send people to the corner because you don't want to deal with them but its to rehabilitate. I think there are some major and obvious flaws in the justice system but there is nothing that could possibly help this man in prison.

myownsatellite wrote:He needs to be locked away in a mental hospital for the rest of his life. He is a danger to society and nothing will ever convince me otherwise.


No one is saying that this guy is "cured" or ever will be. I don't understand how people can have compassion for someone who is unfairly murdered, but can completely vilify someone who is clearly suffering from severe delusions and an entirely unchecked mental disorder. To be honest I'm not sure I believe most of that article, because it seems incredibly sensationalized. But people who suffer from mental illnesses are not frequently violent, especially after treatment and rehabilitation. To keep someone institutionalized after they have recovered and no longer pose a threat entirely devalues the entire system. This is a guy who now has to live with the actions that he couldn't control, I really don't think that anything other psychiatric treatment is going to do anyone any good.
Last edited by Random Name on 3/6/2009, 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby myownsatellite » 3/6/2009, 1:38 pm

Please point out where I'm arguing he be locked up in prison. I'm arguing for his institutionalization in a mental hospital, not a jail.
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Postby Random Name » 3/6/2009, 4:21 pm

yeah i was just kind of rambling and i didnt mean to direct that whole thing towards what you said. i just edited that a bit.
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Goodbye you liar,
Well you sipped from the cup but you don't own up to anything
Then you think you will inspire
Take apart your head
(and I wish I could inspire)
Take apart your demons, then you add it to the list.

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Postby xjsb125 » 3/6/2009, 6:23 pm

Matt Good made a good argument over on his site regarding this. No doubt this guy needs to be placed into an institution that can help him deal with his issues, if that's even possible. From there, they need to make the decision whether or not this guy is well enough to function in society again.
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