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Lets debate (Part One): Abortion

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Postby crustine » 3/25/2007, 10:04 pm

eunuchs is what i meant. wow good thing i am willing the worst speller oskar!
But eunuchs i believe cant self replicate, i think they are sterile...i am not sure on this though.
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Postby beautiful liar » 3/26/2007, 9:35 am

a eunich is a castrated male. yes, they are sterile, and no, they can't self replicate.

in some countries eunichs used to be employed as king's advisors or to guard the king's harems because it was believed they wouldn't become involved in politics - of course, that proved extremely wrong.
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Postby AnnieDreams » 3/26/2007, 12:27 pm

sometimes they're used as sopranos!
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Postby Neil » 3/27/2007, 1:54 pm

So......what do ya'll think about the newly proposed legislation that would grant the birth mother 500.00 from the government; if you will give your child up and NOT have an abortion.

I see child-farming becoming the new "in".
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Postby AnnieDreams » 3/28/2007, 5:30 pm

how is $500 worth going through preganancy and childbirth?
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Postby Neil » 3/30/2007, 1:40 pm

AnnieDreams wrote:how is $500 worth going through preganancy and childbirth?



That's a good question; ask some of these women if the legislation passes.

Heck, in California its legal to abandon your baby if you do it in the hospital, and within the first 72 hours. At least, I think its California where this is legal.
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Postby crustine » 3/30/2007, 6:17 pm

i dont think it is legal anywhere to abandon your child.
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Postby Neil » 3/31/2007, 1:14 pm

crustine wrote:i dont think it is legal anywhere to abandon your child.


It seriously is; I didn't know such a thing existed until I was watching "Nancy Grace" on CNN the other night. She was talking about the mother that recently ditched her baby. Or maybe it was 3 babies, actually.
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Postby crustine » 3/31/2007, 2:36 pm

I guess if you leave your children in the hospital then no real harm will come to them.
Also paying women to have children is the slippery slope. To this point it has been illegal to pay a woman to carry a child for you. This was to protect mothers from selling their wombs.
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Postby Joe Cooler » 4/9/2007, 3:21 pm

Ahh yes, the abortion topic. My old soap box. I believe this is the fourth or fifth time this has been discussed and each time it all goes to hell. (Usually my fault) Anyway, the more I talk about it, the more I realize that the topic is far more complex than either side really wants to believe. It's generally agreed that a fetus is human, and thus, abortion involves killing another human life. The actual process of aborting a child is by no means humane, but rather quite sickening and barbaric. Certainly, the process of killing livestock or even executing criminals is far more "tasteful."

Regardless, most Pro-Choice advocates argue that abortion should exist to give mothers who are backed into a corner an out. I can certainly understand this. They argue that if abortion were to become illegal than pregnant mothers would abort their child using extremely dangerous methods (coat hanger). Another valid point to be sure.

Yet no seems to have addressed the fact that most mothers do not abort because they have been raped or because they do not have the economic means to afford them but rather because they simply do not want the child. I'm sure most of us would agree that this is not a good reason. Therefore, because abortion is legal, there are hundreds if not thousands of children who are aborted for reasons that we as a society would not deem valid. Because of this, there is a tension between banning abortion and keeping it legal. Both have huge disadvantages.

Now, there are many who argue that the fetus is part of a women's body and because of that, it is her "right" to do whatever she likes with it while it is within her. This mentality is primarily promoted by the extreme feminist movement. By extension, pro-choice is a liberal idea as has been mentioned. I'd like to put forward that abortion should be an entirely separate issue from the left agenda and for that matter, women's rights.

Historically, it was the feminists who argued against abortion, citing the rights of an unborn child. Today this is not the case. As I mentioned, nearly all partisans of the abortion debate acknowledge the humanity of the unborn, that the unborn is a human individual distinct from its mother. Thus unborn humans fall into the same category as women with the regard to these foundational moral principles. Ironic, that pro-choice feminists deny the application of these principles to the unborn yet argue that it be applied to them. Pro-choice feminists resent that their value has been historically determined by men and yet declare that the value of a child is determined by whether a mother wants the child or not. Certainly this is something that needs to be addressed by the feminist movement.

Anyway, I realize that the issue is highly complex. Ultimately, neither legalizing it or banning it will solve all problems. Rather, I think our government should look at ways in which it can support pregnant mothers. Abortion should by no means be the first option to any struggling mother.

Finally, if I have not made it clear, I am against abortion but believe myself to be far more sympathetic to both sides than i once was.
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Postby AnnieDreams » 4/9/2007, 5:32 pm

I disagree.
Not with most of your arguments, but that you base them on saying most people regard a fetus as being human. Everyone I know who is vocally pro-choice regards a fetus as something with the potential to be human, but as not yet being a human (until a certain point in the pregnancy, I'm not sure when exactly).
So, they do see it as being part of the woman's body, or maybe even a sort of parasite in the woman's body, or whatever you want to call it. Something that she has the choice to get rid of.
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Postby Joe Cooler » 4/9/2007, 6:15 pm

Yes there are those in the general public who still believe this, but most strong proponents of pro-choice will say that a fetus is human. It's quite hard to argue otherwise. So if your friends are pro-choice they should know that most scholars and experts who support their view point do not support their idea that a fetus is not human.

Most who do not believe the fetus is human will note that the brain activity of a fetus before 7-months is different than that of a human who has been born. However, this argument brakes down when applied to the rights of all humanity. Biological differences between unborn and born are transcendent and will eventually fade while biological differences between a man and a women for example, will not. We say that the differences between men and women are of no consequence so how can we say that the difference between a fetus and a live child is of consequence. Again this is in contrast to everything which feminists have fought for. Humanity defines one's rights not biology.
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