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Postby Korzic » 6/10/2006, 12:11 am

starvingeyes wrote: Stuff


I didn't overlook your first post.
Let me see if I can get this straight.

You oppose the use of force/violence
You believe in the deregulation of everything meaning each individual has their own say to do as they please.

As far as I can see, point 1 cannot exist with point 2. It is a paradox. I don't understand how you can believe in something that cannot exist. I could understand it if you just wanted free will for everyone and accept a violent outcome or you wanted a non violent utopia without free will. But together they don't function as a unit. Now I know you don't believe ina non violent utopia but how can you wish for something that cannot exist?
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Postby starvingeyes » 6/12/2006, 1:25 pm

no, i oppose the INIATIATION of the use of force - as in, "throwing the first punch".

i believe it is wrong to force any one person to do anything else, unless they have already iniated force. therefore, i believe it is wrong to murder, but not wrong to kill a murderer.
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Postby Korzic » 6/13/2006, 10:18 pm

Rewrote entire post with less haste.

It's all very well to oppose the initiation of violence but in the land of anarchy where free will reigns, how are you going to prevent this. You and I live next to each other. One day I decide to build a 10 ft fence in my backyard and plant massive trees so you cant see the views you once had. What are you going to do?

Will become a vandal in the middle of the night thus becoming violent
Will you try to reason with me only for me to say Bugger off!
Obviously its not illegal for me to do this since in your wayward world, I can think without being oppressed and do what I like without fear of recrimination.

Alternatively, I decide that you look better in a 4x4x4 ft steel box and I build it around you while you sleep. What do you do then?
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Postby starvingeyes » 6/14/2006, 12:45 pm

building a jail cell around me is holding me against my will, which is tantamount to the initiation of force. therefore, if you were to build one around me, either myself or my associates would take the neccessary recourse against you. depending on how you respond, this could be anything from simply removing the cell right up to your death.

as far as the fence/trees go, well, it's your property, you can do as you please and there is nothing i can rightfully do about it.
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Postby xjsb125 » 6/14/2006, 8:29 pm

Questions for you all:

Those citizens who do not oppose the initiation of force, how much of a problem or chaos do you think they would create for others?

What types of impact do you see retail and manufacturing taking?

What obstacles do you see in current society standing in the way of a true anarchy society working?
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Postby starvingeyes » 6/15/2006, 12:24 pm

i do not think they would pose much of a problem at all. empirical evidence suggests that the overwhelming majority of first world citizens see the rationale in refraining from the iniation of force. there are very few people today that commit violent acts against other humans - at least outside of government - and in many cases those people are psychologically damaged in some way.

therefore, i have no reason to believe that in the abscence of state authority, these perfectly reasonable people would lose their minds and start attacking one and other. those that did would be dealt with in the appropriate fashion.

as far as retail and manufacturing, well, i am proposing pure capitalism, aren't i? so far, every bit of economic theory throughout recorded history, combined with past events suggests that a totally unregulated market would lead to unprecendented technological and humanitarian prosperity. literally everything would be better - the environment, the economy, quality of life etc.

the biggest, and really ONLY obstacle standing infront of self government is fear. fear of ourselves and fear of eachother.
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Postby nelison » 6/15/2006, 12:51 pm

and fear of the unknown. I mean, anarchy has never occured before in the first world, and I would imagine that any sort of collapse in democracy would cause a lot of insecurity and people wouldn't know how to cope with such a transition. We can say that people are rational and in the long run that perhaps could be the case, but the transition period would be immensely problematic.

Such a move would also have to be universal. One country can't disappear from the map amongst a world of nations. It would cause a lot of problems with the global economy and security. I would fear that by removing one block, the rest will crumble.
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Postby Korzic » 6/16/2006, 9:48 am

If you want to see anarchy in full swing you need only venture into Lavore or Haiti or somewhere similar where there is no law because of the breakdown of government. They aren't really the peace loving folk you'd like to think. As for your point of the majority of the human race would "see the rationale in refraining from the iniation of force. there are very few people today that commit violent acts against other humans - at least outside of government - and in many cases those people are psychologically damaged in some way" In this you are oh so wrong. It would not start out as open conflict. It would escalate. Government provide laws which provide common direction which in turn leads to order and everyone at least agreeing on walking in the same direction. No government with no laws paves the way for no common direction and this leads to disorder and chaos which ultimately leads to violence. I don't understand how you can be so naive as to think the majority of the human race without leadership , without direction and would so blithely walk in the same direction. Have you ever read William Golding's Lord of the Flies? That is a classic example of what happens when you try to lead an anarchical existence.

Among us there are leaders, among us there are followers. People are attracted to charismatic leaders. Sooner or later, you would find 2 people disagree on an issue and the more rabid supporters would rise up against each other. You only need look to Islam and Christianity for this example. Both religions preach peace, that doesn't stop the extremists doing violence in their supposed names.
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Postby Bandalero » 6/19/2006, 1:07 pm

Korzic wrote:
Bandalero wrote:it won't work, warlords will eventually run everything.


For some reason I read that as warlocks. I was trying to figure out if you werejust trying to be funnny or making some obsucre WoW reference.


no i was serious. warlords would take over major civilian infrustructures. and also they would be continually fighting each other for turf and the end result would be lack of services.
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Postby Korzic » 6/20/2006, 1:22 am

Bandalero wrote:
Korzic wrote:
Bandalero wrote:it won't work, warlords will eventually run everything.


For some reason I read that as warlocks. I was trying to figure out if you werejust trying to be funnny or making some obsucre WoW reference.


no i was serious. warlords would take over major civilian infrustructures. and also they would be continually fighting each other for turf and the end result would be lack of services.


I knew what you were trying to say... I just misread it
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Postby Bandalero » 6/20/2006, 10:22 am

i know...i just like to put it out there again. :)
Whenever death may surprise us,
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.


Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
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