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Hamas Victory

Postby bovine » 1/28/2006, 10:30 pm

So many people think that democracy will work for everyone, but now a terrorist organization legitamitely won an election. What does this say about democracy now? I've heard of democracy being called - by critics - "mob rule" and now I see what they mean. I suppose some people will claim that it's not really a terrorist organization. Is there a terrorist organization in existance that actually says they're a terrorist organization? Most claim strong religious beliefs and claim that despite their use of excessive violence, that they are not terrorists. They're "freedom fighters" and they're "defending themselves." Well, whatever label you want to put on them, they are, a violent organization. In my book, that's a terrorist organization, but I guess that's just me. I wouldn't put it past them to take rights away from their own people and begin to attack foreign nations even when completely unprovoked.

























Please ignore the subject. It should read "George W Bush Victory"
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It's just coincidence that oil men will wage war in an oil rich land
And this one goes out to my man taking cover in the trenches with a gun in his hand
Then gets home and no one flinches when he can't feed his fam...

But Brutus is an honorable man...

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Postby Korzic » 1/29/2006, 12:07 am

Wait... because the good ol' US of A uses suicide bombers to blow up school buses too right?
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Postby bovine » 1/29/2006, 6:54 am

Not suicide bombers, no. We usually like to keep our own lives intact when killing civilians whether on purpose or as a tragic accident that always comes with war. Don't take my word for it, check this site out http://www.iraqbodycount.org
:::troy:::

Brutus is an honorable man
It's just coincidence that oil men will wage war in an oil rich land
And this one goes out to my man taking cover in the trenches with a gun in his hand
Then gets home and no one flinches when he can't feed his fam...

But Brutus is an honorable man...

- Saul Williams
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Postby nikki4982 » 1/29/2006, 7:18 am

It's funny cos when I was reading the first post, I was thinking "you mean like the army?"
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Postby Korzic » 1/29/2006, 8:15 am

bovine wrote:Not suicide bombers, no. We usually like to keep our own lives intact when killing civilians whether on purpose or as a tragic accident that always comes with war. Don't take my word for it, check this site out http://www.iraqbodycount.org


You miss my point.

However on that site... while interesting I can see some glaringly big holes in its calculation.

Casualty figures are derived from a comprehensive survey of online media reports and eyewitness accounts. Where these sources report differing figures, the range (a minimum and a maximum) are given. All results are independently reviewed and error-checked by at least two members of the Iraq Body Count project team in addition to the original compiler before publication.


Despite comprehensively reviewing a host of online sources (ie newspapers) they neglect to mention that most of the news paper sources are 2nd hand at best and for the most part will more than likely come from the 1 source. It's then up to the journo to put his/her spin on the numbers that they churn out.

For a source to be considered acceptable to this project it must comply with the following standards: (1) site updated at least daily; (2) all stories separately archived on the site, with a unique url (see Note 1 below); (3) source widely cited or referenced by other sources; (4) English Language site; (5) fully public (preferably free) web-access.


If you look up any of those sites listed, they all reference each other. With most referencing Reuters and AP since those are the primary source of news and current affairs.

I would hazard a guess the figures cannot take into consideration the deaths due to insurgent activitity as a result of Coalition presence in the area.

::Al Qaeda Operative:: Shit, I'm surrounded by US forces... lets blow up this hospital so they can't get me

::News Report:: 327 people die after hospital is blown up during a US attack on insurgents.

To blame the Coalition for those deaths is akin to blaming yourself for your cat being thrown into the pool and drowning because you didn't give him your sandwiches today.

BUt that site aside.

=================================================

The hidden side to Iraq is that for the majority of people, thye want the US there. But that news will never see the light of day since it wouldn't sell as well as 327 dead in Iraq. If you hunt hard enough, you'll find that information.
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Postby bovine » 1/29/2006, 9:00 am

Korzic wrote:
bovine wrote:Not suicide bombers, no. We usually like to keep our own lives intact when killing civilians whether on purpose or as a tragic accident that always comes with war. Don't take my word for it, check this site out http://www.iraqbodycount.org


You miss my point.

However on that site... while interesting I can see some glaringly big holes in its calculation.


They're estimating approx. 30,000 civilians. Let's say that's inflated 1000% (I highly doubt it's that far off). So, 3,000 civilians were killed. That's another 9/11.
:::troy:::

Brutus is an honorable man
It's just coincidence that oil men will wage war in an oil rich land
And this one goes out to my man taking cover in the trenches with a gun in his hand
Then gets home and no one flinches when he can't feed his fam...

But Brutus is an honorable man...

- Saul Williams
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Postby Bandalero » 1/29/2006, 10:11 am

democracy, at it purest form is mob rule.

what we have in most countries (US included), is a republic. a republic lets you vote on an individual that represents your district. it's when the corruption and big money gets to your representatives and sways them from representing you, and rather their interests, that the republic system fails.

but in terms of hamas winning elections, that again shows me 2 things. hamas has infiltrated the republic and has corrupted the representatives to do their bidding, or people in those districts just voted with their hearts and decided that hamas was the way to go. honestly, how many of you have actually voted with your hearts, and looked at your party's canidate and fully 100% accepted what comes out of his mouth?

78% turnout though, fucking A man.
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Postby closeyoureyes » 1/29/2006, 2:25 pm

We don't live in democracies. We get one vote every four years. They make the rest of the decisions.

Yeah, not democracy.
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Postby Korzic » 1/29/2006, 3:03 pm

bovine wrote:
Korzic wrote:
bovine wrote:Not suicide bombers, no. We usually like to keep our own lives intact when killing civilians whether on purpose or as a tragic accident that always comes with war. Don't take my word for it, check this site out http://www.iraqbodycount.org


You miss my point.

However on that site... while interesting I can see some glaringly big holes in its calculation.


They're estimating approx. 30,000 civilians. Let's say that's inflated 1000% (I highly doubt it's that far off). So, 3,000 civilians were killed. That's another 9/11.


1000% inflation would make it 300
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Postby thirdhour » 1/29/2006, 5:33 pm

What was the point of arguing that site? The point was that innocent people die in war. Lots of em. Are you saying their lives don't matter because the stories aren't properly sited?

And how the hell do you know that the majority of the people want the US in Iraq? Are you there, have you asked them? Any news source is second hand information, and anything that comes directly from an Iraqi is just one person's opinion. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not, but you can't take it as fact any more than the body count site.

Anyways, Hamas, the point of this thread. Peace in the middle east right now is fucked. Just when it seemed progress was being made, Sharon got taken out of the picture and Hamas decided it didn't want to play by the rules any more. A ruling Hamas party will cause massive changes, and not just in international issues. While under Arafat, the country was fairly secular, but Hamas is a very conservative party that supports traditional Muslim laws, like seperation of the sexes and making alcohol illegal. Any Palestinian government, especially one isolated by the western world, has economic problems to deal with as well. There's a good chance that Hamas will become a more moderate party while faced with the challenges of governing, but who knows.
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Postby don't ask why » 1/29/2006, 8:55 pm

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Postby Axtech » 1/29/2006, 9:27 pm

Korzic wrote:
bovine wrote:
Korzic wrote:
bovine wrote:Not suicide bombers, no. We usually like to keep our own lives intact when killing civilians whether on purpose or as a tragic accident that always comes with war. Don't take my word for it, check this site out http://www.iraqbodycount.org


You miss my point.

However on that site... while interesting I can see some glaringly big holes in its calculation.


They're estimating approx. 30,000 civilians. Let's say that's inflated 1000% (I highly doubt it's that far off). So, 3,000 civilians were killed. That's another 9/11.


1000% inflation would make it 300


Way to focus on a pointless technicality and completely ignore what he said. :thumbs:
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Postby closeyoureyes » 1/29/2006, 10:47 pm

I'm just worried this will blossom into a new point of interest for warsakes for the US of A. Especially now that we have Stephen Harper as PM, Canada could be in on whatever military endeavour Bush goes on.

Israels stance, what I saw on the news, was "We are waiting for the US to comment" or something of that nature.
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Postby Korzic » 1/30/2006, 2:54 am

Axtech wrote:
Korzic wrote:
bovine wrote:
Korzic wrote:
bovine wrote:Not suicide bombers, no. We usually like to keep our own lives intact when killing civilians whether on purpose or as a tragic accident that always comes with war. Don't take my word for it, check this site out http://www.iraqbodycount.org


You miss my point.

However on that site... while interesting I can see some glaringly big holes in its calculation.


They're estimating approx. 30,000 civilians. Let's say that's inflated 1000% (I highly doubt it's that far off). So, 3,000 civilians were killed. That's another 9/11.


1000% inflation would make it 300


Way to focus on a pointless technicality and completely ignore what he said. :thumbs:


10 second response before I ran out the door to work this morning :P

But all this islliness aside. My point is this.

The US went into Iraq with what we all know were false pretenses. WMD's aside, the majority of the reason was for GWB to finish off dad's work. WE all know this. And while it may have been a secondary objective, you can't dispute the fact that att the same time it has improved the QOL for the vast majority of Iraqis and for the most part they are exceptionally appreciative to the troops for what they have done. The same cannot be said for Palestine and Israel. Hamas would love for nothing better than to exterminate every single Israeli from the face of the earth. You cannot compare anything that the US has done in Iraq to this.
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Postby bovine » 1/30/2006, 9:42 am

Korzic wrote:1000% inflation would make it 300


umm...no. 1000% is 10 times. If the actual number was 3,000, 10 times that is 30,000. Look at this equation...

3,000 X 1,000 = 3,000,000
3,000,000 / 100% = 30,000

I'll admit one thing. Normally with "inflation" you consider the number staying the same as a 0% inflation not 100%. So, "technically" one could sensibly argue that 1000% inflation on 3,000 would bring the number up to 33,000. While 3,000 actual lives certainly is a lot, when you're using these kinds of estimates both on the part of the site and my 1000% example, it's not that much of a difference. Certainly not the difference between my 3,000 and your 300.

Despite the fact that my math is, within reason, correct, I think Robbo said it best - you took a technicallity and missed the whole point.

:::troy:::
:::troy:::

Brutus is an honorable man
It's just coincidence that oil men will wage war in an oil rich land
And this one goes out to my man taking cover in the trenches with a gun in his hand
Then gets home and no one flinches when he can't feed his fam...

But Brutus is an honorable man...

- Saul Williams
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Postby Korzic » 1/30/2006, 2:56 pm

bovine wrote:
Despite the fact that my math is, within reason, correct, I think Robbo said it best - you took a technicallity and missed the whole point.

:::troy:::


As I said, I really didn't have time between 7:43 and 7:45am yesterday morning to read the post and come up with a multi paragraphed answer. Just as today.
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Postby I AM ME » 1/31/2006, 3:20 am

Democracy doesn't work. Unfortunatly it just happens to be the best alternative considering that nothing else work either, and most other have a greater threat of abuse.
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Postby closeyoureyes » 2/2/2006, 12:23 am

Pretty much. BUt there are certainly more democratic countries than others(I don't mean to say the US or Canada is great, they are not.)
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Postby Korzic » 2/2/2006, 6:57 am

closeyoureyes wrote:Pretty much. BUt there are certainly more democratic countries than others(I don't mean to say the US or Canada is great, they are not.)


And what in God's name do you mean by that? Do you have any better WORKABLE solutions?

You give people the freedom of choice to vote in those who they want to represent you. The more popular guy wins. Sure in certain circumstances the more popular guy wins because he's simple got more guns pointed at your head, but that doesn't apply in the Western world. So if having the most popular guy elected to represent you is not a great idea, then what is?
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Postby Bandalero » 2/2/2006, 9:50 am

i wouldn't say democracy doesn't work.

Democracy works alot better when the money is taken out of it, and you elect people who actually care about individuals and their concerns, not political careers that get lined with massive amounts of revenue.
Whenever death may surprise us,
let it be welcome
if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear
and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.


Nobody's gonna miss me, no tears will fall, no ones gonna weap, when i hit that road.
my boots are broken my brain is sore, fer keepin' up with thier little world, i got a heavy load.
gonna leave 'em all just like before, i'm big city bound, your always 17 in your hometown
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