Toronto becoming too VIOLENT

[BOAT]

I've lived in Toronto for 24+ years... and with the rising crime and gun violence here, I just don't feel as safe anymore.

read this article taken from yahoo.ca

MIKE OLIVEIRA
Wed Dec 28, 1:07 AM ET



TORONTO (CP) - A Boxing Day shootout that killed an innocent teenaged bystander has left Toronto residents wondering how much worse the city's violence can get after as many as 15 young people were involved in a shootout on a busy street packed with holiday shoppers.

Police, politicians and the people of Toronto reacted with shock and revulsion Tuesday after learning more about the incident that saw a 15-year-old girl become the city's 78th murder victim of the year.

She was shot during a shopping trip at around 5:15 p.m. while surrounded by countless other people. The shootings occurred outside a shoe store and across the street from Sam The Record Man and Future Shop stores, two of the biggest Boxing Day attractions on Yonge Street.

Six others were also injured and one person was in critical condition.

Prime Minister Paul Martin said he was horrified and called the shootings an outrage while Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty said the girl was a victim of "the insanity of guns." A Toronto detective declared police would respond to a city that had lost its innocence.

But condolences and promises of fighting crime - particularly gun violence - did little to ease the worries of people shocked by the brazenness of the shootout.

"Somebody asked me is this the crisis point," said Saeed Selvam of the Toronto Youth Cabinet, a youth activist group that held a news conference with several other youth groups outside city hall.

"No. The crisis point was reached a long time ago and this is what it's come to - an innocent bystander being hit, which is ridiculous. A 15-year-old girl? It's just too much."

The shootings served as a painful reminder that public safety can't be taken for granted, Martin said.

"I think, more than anything else, they demonstrate what are in fact the consequences of exclusion," he said during a service in Montreal marking the Jewish holiday of Hanukkah.

The shootings made headlines around the world as CNN, NBC, the BBC and newspapers in Australia and New Zealand reported on the story.

The crime scene remained taped off Tuesday morning with dozens of evidence markers littered across the sidewalk and all over the road. Despite the fact that many people were off work Tuesday, few were walking near the normally busy stretch of Yonge Street.

Those who were on hand stood behind the police tape and tried to grasp the reality of what had happened a day earlier.

Both city residents and outsiders reacted.

Thirty-seven-year-old Joseph Gelgec, a tourist from Germany, said he couldn't believe such a violent act of crime occurred just steps outside his hotel. It changed his perception of Canada, he said.

"I'm surprised, I never thought things like that could happen here in Toronto. I'm very scared, it's a strange feeling," he said of the quiet, tense atmosphere surrounding the crime scene.

Twenty-one-year-old Emily Trenbeth said she had mixed emotions as she stumbled into the roadblock, near where she works. She said she wasn't surprised by the shooting since they've become so prevalent in the city but seeing things first hand made her feel something different.

"Everywhere you go you're going to find crime. It's unfortunate that it had to happen on Boxing Day at 5 o'clock in the afternoon, but it happens," she said.

"But this scares me a little bit more because I love Yonge Street and I love walking up and down here. I'll definitely be a little more careful but I will still walk up and down here," she said.

The escalating violence and lack of respect for other people is driving people out of the city, said a long-time Torontonian who was watching police at work at the crime scene.

"It seems every day when you open (a newspaper) or turn on the radio something has happened overnight," said the 56-year-old man who asked that his name not be published. "It's just terrible."

So far police have arrested two people but investigators are still trying to determine if they played any role in the shootings. They have not been charged.

The new information to emerge from police Tuesday was detail about the nature of the incident.

Police say two groups of young people in their late teens to early 20s got in an argument and began shooting. As many as 10 to 15 people were involved in the shootout. A handgun has been seized and police say they believe more than one gun was used.

Two other brazen shootings have taken place this year in the same Dundas Square area, which is popular with tourists but not usually known for violence.

On a Saturday night in late July, a man was fatally shot in a crowd of about 1,000 people despite a heavy police presence.

And on a Sunday afternoon in April, three people - including two bystanders - were wounded after a gunman opened fire on another man on the same stretch of street where Monday's shootings occurred.

Of the 78 murders in Toronto this year, a record 52 were by gunfire. The city set a record for murders in 1991, with 88.





so now we wonder... these gun blazing morons have to shoot innocent people because they can't fucking aim? Not to mention their arguments get heated and they feel really tough with guns in their pockets.

I used to feel safe walking on Yonge street... but now what? If I hear yelling I have to duck so I don't get shot?

I was close to the shooting in April... arrived about an hour later and saw the cops, and the blood... the gunman ran from the scene so fast that his shoes fell off and so he got caught because cops arrested a man with no shoes.

I know this is a long post... but to think after Christmas we can all post happy stories... but in this case a 15 year old girl was murdered in front of her family. It's fucking sick... even if it was an "accident".

In honour of that girl, I'm gonna post lyrics to a Paddy Casey song called "fear" ... you should all listen to it.

how can we stop this violence? How can we learn to use the word LOVE?

"FEAR" by Paddy Casey

I'm scared for my child, lord, for her mother
For what you people wanna do to one another
For the water, for the trees --
Man, I'm scared of pollution, of disease

And I'm scared that my child won't live a long time
With your murderin', rape and your drug money crime;
Scared of the drugs stealing youth from the young.
Well their life story; well that'll never be sung

And I pray my child lives happy and long,
And I hope she never will sing this song
And I pray, my child, live happy and long, Lord
And I hope she never will sing this song

Well as some men talk of peace now -- good intentions.
I'm only gonna look at his latest inventions.
Hope I'm wrong, Heard I'm right --
Man he could end it all tonight.
I know upon this night another village is burning;
Child lose their life as their first sun is turning;
Leaders of holocaust stand so tall;
Man it looks like there ain't no value in life at all...

Well I pray my child will live happy and long, Lord,
And I hope she never will sing this song

So lord please forgive me if my fear offend now --
It's just so hard to transcend now
Cause when i ran away from my bad dream
The child inside was too scared and screamed

[dream in japanese]

i didn't find out about this until yesterday, i was a block from there when that happened but i had no idea that it happened...this is really scary stuff and it's reallly sad

[Long Jonny]

the rise in gun violence is very scary. the number of murders gun-related this year has doubled since last year. it should never have gotten this out of hand. i live about two or three blocks away from where this happened and it scares the crap out of me to know that this is going on.

[happening fish]

This is happening in Montreal as well, I live a block off the main club district and people keep getting shot or attacked at 4 am

[Soozy]

That's really awful.

That shooting in Dundas Square in July was while we were there for the Drake Show - but at least in that case it was some kind of drug deal gone wrong or something like that where at least the people knew each other. But I've walked that bit of Yonge Street so many times oftentimes with CMers/hubbers and to think that that could have been us or any innocent person is just not good

[reza]

I live in York University so I'm just a little but off Jane and Finch where the majority of the T.O shootings happen. I hear sirens 2-3 times a day.

[Johnny]

violence is rising in Edmonton as well.

[Random Name]

I'm glad Canada only has 3 major cities.

And that I'm not in one of them

Honestly though, I think thats expected to be in any major metropolis. Its a reaction to anonomity.

[Hope]

yah, that boxing day thing was so unfortunate
(greaters) vancouver's getting shootings daily now, and thats really different from what i remember vancouver to be only just a couple of years ago

[don't ask why]

It's all gang drug related warfare with ethnicity thrown in.

[Smooke]

Toronto is one crazy city!!

I lived there for 15 years and I'm glad my parents moved to Halifax when I was 15 because I wouldn't have wanted to grow up in Toronto with all the temptations of drugs and violence around. I think I would've been a different person if the family lived in Toronto because some of my friends I grew up w/ there turned to drugs and street fighting. So it makes me wonder

This is why I want to go to Toronto to become a cop. I want to help make a difference to the community through crime prevention and community policing.

[BOAT]

but this type of behaviour has been happening for countless years.

and we try and stop it the same ways over and over again.

we need new ideas.

we need to be brave and figure things out quite differently.

we need to learn to understand eachother... we need to learn to *gasp* agree on things!

the way things are going now, we're all gonna end up dead.

I have hope for mankind... but it's hard to hold onto that hope when I read about all this murder. Whether it's gang related, religion related or war related.... it's all murder.

we kill eachother pretty well... and we can't seem to get something as simple as living right.

I think the OLP guys should send out a statement about violence. I wanna know what they would do to change things so this world can be a better place. Forget the politicians who pretend to care... we all really do listen to the musicians.

come on

-Kruno

[Korzic]

Before I jump into a long winded post and cop a schellacking for what I'm about to write. I don't support violence in any form at all. Nor am I defending it. But forgive me for sounding a touch blase about the whole deal.

Don't be paranoid. Now, I haven't looked up any statistics what so ever, but try to take everything into persepctive. YOu may have had 78 murders this year within the city limits. But of the overall crime rate what percentage does this make up. Compare it with 5 or 10 years ago and then you can really get a better idea of what is happening in your city. Hell, we've had riots and murders and all sorts of stuff this year. This doesn't make my city unsafe. This doesn't make my city a violent city. Simply because the media get a hold of it and fly it up like a spinnaker makes for great news, but it also sensationalises the incident and can often make things appear worse than they usually are. Violence will NEVER be stopped. Utopia does not exist. Human nature will continually prevent it from being so. You can't stamp out violence. You can only minimise the effect it has on your lives.

[BOAT]

I know the media makes us paranoid...

however, 10 years ago Toronto didn't even have a police helicopter... or they recently got one.

10 years ago an event like the one I posted would be huge news.

The gun violence in the past couple years in Toronto has increased enough that we have every right to be worried.

I'm not saying run around waving your hands in the air... but Toronto used to be so quite safe compared to what it is now. I speak from experience.



And the real human nature is not to destroy ourselves. We're born innocent... everything is taught to us. We're taught to fear.

violence can be stopped... it's when people say violence can't be stopped that people give up before even going about doing anything about it.

If fears are taught, they can be un-taught. We can un-learn what we have learned. We can start fresh... we can admit and agree that killing and other violent acts just don't work.

-Kruno

[Korzic]

A police helicopter is not always used in the chase for criminals. There are a million and one uses for a chopper that doesn't involve crime. Your point proves nothing.

15 years ago you had more murders than you did this year. Whether you're killed with a gun/rope/hammer/Col. Mustard in the billiard room with the broom. No matter what way you look at it you're still dead and thats still violent crime. Dead is dead is dead and in the long run no one cares how it happened, only the end result.

Toronto, in all likelihood is still as safe as it was 10 years ago if not safer (although I can't vouch for this, wandering around with heavily laden bags for 5 hrs in the wee hours of the morning looking for some place to stay, I didn't feel any threat to my safety but that aside) You also need to look at how much crime is being reported in the news now too. If you can provide me with stats that says violent crime is on the increase then I'll gladly eat humble pie, but until then I refuse to believe that simply because some girl got blown away in the street that this makes Toronto a more dangerous place than it was 10 years ago.

And finally, I'll repeat, utopia will not exist. It's a very nice thought to dream about but you need to realise its reality biting you on the arse saying "I know that you know that this can't/won't happen. Violence is all around us in nature, the difference between us and the 2 alpha gorillas fighting over the leadership of the pack is that we have the brains and the equipment to make the problem go away permanently. It can't be stopped, only it's effect minimised.

[Random Name]

Campbell actually makes a really good point. Violent crimes in Canada have done nothing but drop after hitting a high point around the 80's. The media glamorizes violent crimes to promote a state of fear, and than whoever says in the next election "We'll take a stand against crime and put more people in jail" will win.

Its really strange to think that some people live in a place where there are murders every day and gun fights every night. In the entire province of Newfoundland and Labrador there will maybe be one murder in the entire year. In St. John's there are maybe 150 car thefts in the year. The stats outside of these major cities are really a lot lower than what people think they are.

[BOAT]

you know what... you live in Australia. I live in Toronto.

My mom grew up in Australia, and you don't see me trying to prove points about the violence over there. I'm just saying that I live here, in TOronto... and I've lived here for almost 25 years. I know first hand that violence is increasing.

Trust me, I know about the lies in the media. I have friends who are journalists, and they have admitted to me that the news is full of lies and fear. I know....

but that doesn't change the fact that I am experiencing increased violence first hand. I see it with my eyes man... and you know what, it breaks my heart. It's mostly gang related crime... people moving here from places like Sri lanka, and bringing their gang war with them. They move to the Scarborough area of Toronto and shoot at eachother. Stray bullets hit innocent people... kids, bus drivers etc. One time some guy gets shot and dies running from police, right outside where Sandman used to live. This kind of stuff never used to happen as often... and if it did, it was BIG news across Canada.



THe only reason Utopia doesn't exist is because we haven't found it yet. We're too pissed off to Love eachother. Many people on this board prove that quite well.

Nothing is impossible.

In any case I asked for solutions, not problems.

-Kruno

[goleafsgo]

Boy, this get me really fired up and I have tons of thought about this.

I've lived in Toronto all my life. I love the city. The multiculturalism, the sense of community, it's innocence... all of those add to this beautiful city. Yes, statistically speaking murders are not at it's all time high. Is it necessary for it to peak before we make changes? It's ridiculous that the politicians have only begun to refer and plan changes for safety and criminal justice procedures (coincidentally election time). Too bad they only talk and action is limited. All I hear from David Miller and Chief Blair is how they are disgusted and how events like this should not happen. Well, that's wonderful. I can make those statements too. BUT those people are in their respective positions because they can make a difference. How about alittle less talk and a little more action.

With regards to the helicopter, David Miller and the po-po council (I have no respect for this council thus I will resport to name calling) was approached earlier this year with a FREE, ABSOLUTELY FREE helicopter from Regional Air Support. With the council and David Miller infinite wisdom, the rejected such proposal. Such program is already in use in Edmonton and Calgary.

Ugh, it just angers me that there is so much that can be done, yet no one does squat but complain and make empty promises after the fact.[/url]

[joe_canadian]

Yeah Kruno, you're right. Now go ahead and pose a solution, the world needs you. Because complex problems always have simple solutions, like vapid wanking. You're a real life saver.

[BOAT]

sometimes the simplest answers are the most profound.



it's amazing what L O V E can do.


The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls a butterfly.



don't attack me because I have hope for humanity. Attack me if I'm a danger to humanity... but please, don't attack me because I have hope.