Finally, a religion/anti-religion thread.

[Narbus]

Hey. Look who just figured out the biggest problem with Christianity, which usefully doubles as the primary reason I refuse to believe in it.

[One-Eye]

Yeah, I figured out some time ago that even if the Christian God did exist, and I could prove it, I wouldn't worship him. At least not if that's really the way he runs his show.

[Narbus]

It is. See Exodus, where God "hardened Pharoh's heart," essentially forcing the plauges upon the unsuspecting Egyptians, including that slaughter of every first-born, just to make the point "Don't fuck with God" especially clear.

[Henrietta]

[One-Eye]

[Narbus]

You.

Are.

Not.

Christian.

If you're going to claim to be, you could at least do so while actually standing up to my posts. No more of this, "well, um, LOOK A SEAGULL! *runs*" crap.

Christians believe that we are all sinners, and therefore all unworthy of God and Heaven, no matter how great our works, but faith in Jesus as our Savior allows for forgivness of our sins, and thus entrance into Heaven.

Mormons believe that works are what determines entrance into Heaven.

These ARE NOT THE SAME BELIEFS. Ergo, you are not Christian.

[One-Eye]

<i>Please</i> let's not get into this again...

[Narbus]

Too late, clearly.

If she'd actually, I dunno, respnnd to me, then things would be different. If she had any kind of argument at all against what I've been saying, then things might be different. It's this refusal to answer any questions at all crap that's annoying me into pushing this so far.

[One-Eye]

But why does it <i>matter</i> so much to you? She considers herself a Christian, and she's not going to change her mind because some other Christians believe different things. There are more important things to talk about.

[Narbus]

Because she's wrong. Isn't that enough? Why are you so tolerant of lies and deceptions? Seriously.
It bothers me that she claims to be mormon but I know more about her religion than she does. Me, a person who's closest spiritual label is agnostic, has done more research into her religion than she has, and she's apparently chosen to live the life of a Mormon. She makes this giant life-altering decision for no reason at all.
I spend all this time reading up on religions and faiths and all this crap and know more about it than she does and the best response to anything I say is "I cannot ezplain to EXACTLY how this works."

That's just ignorant. I honestly cannot believe that someone would want to live their life ignorant, especially in so important an area.

[One-Eye]

But why is it any of your business to harass people about what they believe? I enjoy discussing religion and my views, but it's not my right to tell people that what they believe in is wrong. I've gotten enough of that from other people to know that it's rude and it's useless. She's not going to change her beliefs unless she chooses to. If she doesn't want to spend the time that you have researching different religions, that's her right and her business. You've made your point, so let's just move on.

[mosaik]

this isn't about her beliefs. it's about semantics, really. i understand why narbus is frusterated because i get it all the time when you folks go around calling my rationalist philosophy irrational and not being able to back it up.

he wants her to admit that christian beliefs and mormon beliefs contradict each other. they do. whats the problem? he's not asking her to renounce her beliefs. he just wants her to acknowledge that he's got a point about the differences between her beliefs and christian beliefs.

[One-Eye]

Okay, maybe because he's wrong? We've discussed this. I'm not going to go back over it.

[Narbus]

Exactly. All I want is for her to actually know what she is professing. If she does know, and still wants to be mormon, then more power to her. But this "Well, I have no idea what I believe, but you, who actually has looked into the relgion, are clearly wrong," stuff is what's so freaking frustrating.

If you're going to profess a belief, then know what you're professing. That's all I ask.


Aerin: Read. My. DAMN. Posts.

I am not wrong. If you really feel I am, then start showing me where.

[One-Eye]

I showed you where over and over again. To be Christian, you've got to believe in Christ. Mormons and Catholics do. End. Of. Story.

Anyway, I believe in the validity of the Theory of Relativity, even though I don't understand all of it. I don't have a background in physics, nor do I really care to. For all I know, it could be a blatant lie. But I believe it's valid. Why? Because there are many people out there, scientists mostly, who understand it very well and could explain it in deep detail to me, and I trust that they know their stuff. If I had to be an expert in everything I "believed" in, I'd spend my entire life in a book.

Why is Cass any different? She knows she doesn't understand all of her religion, but she knows that there are people out there that do, and that could explain it to her if she needed/wanted them to. She hasn't memorized the tenants of the church or the Bible or the Book of Mormon, but she could find out if she wanted to. She trusts their validity like I trust the relativity theory's validity. You don't have to understand everything about something to believe in it.

Furthermore, you yourself have stated that you DON'T know much about the Mormon church, so why should she listen to you? I'm sure there are people in her family or in her church that have spent their lives studying the religion; if she wants to know more about it, is she going to go to the self-proclaimed agnostic on a message-board who admits to not knowing all that much about Mormonism, or to the minister that she's known her whole life and who has studied the faith extensively?

Even if you were right, Narbus, you can't expect her to take your word for it. Your obsession with getting her to "admit she's wrong" is completely fruitless.

[Narbus]

[One-Eye]

Narbus, I share your disbelief in the Mormon religion. However, I haven't seen you present any proof that it's wrong, only that it contradicts the Bible, which you've admitted, also contradicts itself. Obviously, given the number of Christians in the world, contradictions are not a deterrent to faith.

Furthermore, you've taken on a very condescending attitude towards the whole thing, calling their prophets witches and so forth. Before you say "but they were witches," stop and think. If I used such a derogatory term about someone you held in high regard, would you listen to what I had to say? Not likely. To quote a cliche, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Whether you're right or wrong, if you want someone to listen to you, you've got to treat them with respect. Otherwise, they <i>will</i> say "LALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING!"

Finally, religion does not and never has listened to reason. That's just the way it is. I've talked sense to religious people until my face turned blue, and they've still just said that "God works in mysterious ways" and that I "just didn't understand". They're working from a different plane, one where reason is not all that important. Do I think this is a good thing? No. I think reason is a more valid mode of looking at the world. But I recognize that I am not ever going to convince religious people of that.

Save yourself some sanity and some keystrokes, because I can tell you now, she's never going to admit she's wrong.

[mosaik]

contradictions exist in religion because they're illogical by nature. not much you can do about that. but we can be logical when discussing religons.

christianity and mormonism contradict eachother. therefore, they can't be the same religion.

Aerin, or Cass, or whoever, would you care to disprove that statement?

[One-Eye]

Christianity contradicts itself. So what's your logical conclusion from that?

[Corey]